Poll: How much will the new bless effects affect your pretender design?

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by apoger:
>Similarly, quickness - 50% extra attacks by 10 Wardens would probably be similarly useful to 50% extra attacks by 35 flags, because their attacks are so much better. Reinvogoration would be more valuable to wardens than flags. Regeneration would be WAY more useful to wardens than flags... and flaming weapons would probably be more useful to flags because it is multiplied out like strength.


+50% Quickness would net 10 Wardens an extra 5 attacks. It would get 35 flags another 35 attacks! While the warden attacks are stronger, it gets overwhelmed by the sheer volume of flag attacks. Easily.

Even for the stuff like regeneration, yes the flags don't get the benefit of the double attack, but they still get regen on 3.5X as many troops. In a one on one comparison a warden gets more regen than a flag. When you account for 1 warden versus 3.5 flags, the situation is much murkier.

For the bonuses that don't involve an attack the flags only get 3.5X as much bonus as opposed to 7X. I'm still willing to bet that flags are the only troop that will be able to make the new blessing system worthwhile.

Regeneration is much more powerful on armored troops like wardens. While flaggelants can easily be killed by a single blow this is rare for wardens so the chance that regen will have an impact on a warden is much higher. If you take the extreme case of the new Niefel giants this is even more pronounced.

Blessings might not be very powerful in the long run, but since early expansion is very important in most games powerful blessings will have an effect beyond just the blessing effect in itself, since it might allow for quicker expansion etc.

[Saber Cherry]

The problem is that a flagellant will often die with a single hit, so regeneration does him no good... while heavy units often survive with minimal damage, which is then regenerated. Unarmored units also don't really benefit from protection, since they usually die in one hit anyway... and they don't benefit at all from reinvigoration, since they have low encumbrance (and die in a prolonged fight).

Extra attacks are useful for Wardens, because they do much more damage and have a much higher attack rating. So, against very heavy (18 prot Ulm) infantry, 10 Wardens with +3 protection, +3 strength, +3 reinvigoration, and regeneration would probably do much better than 35 flags with the same blessing. Double-strike doesn't help if neither hit does any damage... and 3 protection doesn't help when you're impaled on a pike.

-Cherry

Edit: JO posted about the same thing at about the same time.

[ October 27, 2003, 01:18: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Wick]

"I'm still willing to bet that flags are the only troop that will be able to make the new blessing system worthwhile."

Flags are also the big losers -- strength and attack played right to their strength but several of the new bonuses don't.

I see the new blessing system as simiar to the old one, perhaps slighty weaker, but with more variety and adding a bias for pretender magic. I'm not sure what standard "worthwhile" you're using.
Worthwhile as in sacred troops will be less used then before? As in level 9 magic is just too expensive? As in making a magic path come out even is too expensive?

[apoger]

>10 Wardens with +3 protection, +3 strength, +3 reinvigoration, and regeneration would probably do much better than 35 flags with the same blessing.

Can't compare same blessings, you have to compare best.

35 flags with +3 str, +3 att, def +3 (extra def would make quite an impact versus the wardens above), and 50% quickness would absolutely crush the wardens from the above example. [using the same amount of bless effect]

It's possible that flaming weapons would be even better than quickness, but I'm not quite sure what the flame effect entails yet.

Unless you are going to use sacred troops with missile attacks, the flags are going to come out ahead every time.

[apoger]

>I see the new blessing system as simiar to the old one, perhaps slighty weaker, but with more variety and adding a bias for pretender magic.

My fear is that it will be more than slightly weaker.

What about players who do not invest heavily in pretender magic? That renders any sacred troops much less useful. In Dom I, all nations had some ability to field serious sacred troops. In Dom II players will find their sacred troops to be junky unless they set up their nation specifically to take advantage of them. I'm not sure I like that new paradigm.


>I'm not sure what standard "worthwhile" you're using.

Competitive with other uses of nation points.


>Worthwhile as in sacred troops will be less used then before?

In multiplayer, it's almost certain that we will see less serious use of sacred troops.

[unless of course my suspisions are totally wrong]


>As in level 9 magic is just too expensive?

It generally is.


>As in making a magic path come out even is too expensive?

I have no idea what this means.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by apoger:
>10 Wardens with +3 protection, +3 strength, +3 reinvigoration, and regeneration would probably do much better than 35 flags with the same blessing.

Can't compare same blessings, you have to compare best.

35 flags with +3 str, +3 att, def +3 (extra def would make quite an impact versus the wardens above), and 50% quickness would absolutely crush the wardens from the above example. [using the same amount of bless effect]

It's possible that flaming weapons would be even better than quickness, but I'm not quite sure what the flame effect entails yet.

Unless you are going to use sacred troops with missile attacks, the flags are going to come out ahead every time.

A trifle too dogmatic I fear, Mr. Poger. Much as I respect your veteran status I disagree with your conclusions in this instance.

Comparing best to best I would say that you could craft a group of 10 wardens that could destroy a group of 35 flagellants, simply by playing to the warden's strengths. If there was a specific 'counter' bless effect for every bless effect this wouldn't be possible. What I mean is that obviously if you raise the wardens' defense and the flags' attack, then it'll all balance out. However, there is no opposite to effects like reinvigoration, regeneration, flaming weapons, twist fate, etc. Accordingly it should be possible to craft a blessing effect which would play to the wardens' strengths.

The strengths of the warden (by comparison with flagellants) are high HP (13 vs. 9), high PROT (16 vs. 0), and higher attack and defense. Typically a flagellant will hit about 46% of the time (9 ATT vs. 10 DEF), do some damage 38% of the time (14 vs. 16 PROT), more than likely a very small amount. Typically a warden will hit a flag 89% of the time, and do damage pretty much every time they hit (0 PROT vs. 22) and mostly enough to kill the flag. suppose each is blessed with magic 9 in the most optimal path. For wardens I suggest nature: berserk +3 and regeneration (& poison resistance, but that doesn't relate here). For flags suppose water, for even more attacks, or blood (except I'm not sure what is meant by 'death curse') So let's suppose water.

The wardens will regenerate HP, meaning that if one is not killed in a single round he will likely bounce back and do more damage. In addition, getting wounded will give him +3 str, prot, and att, and -3 def. The defense reduction isn't a big deal because he's getting hit quite a lot anyway (7 attacks to his 1), so his defense is not where his strength is anyway. +3 str also isn't a big deal because he likely kills a flag with each attack anyway. same with +3 att. +3 prot will reduce the number of times the warden gets damaged to about 20% (14 vs. 19 PROT), and accordingly reduce the amount of damage he takes.

The flags get def +4, and quickness (50%), which is an extra attack every other round I believe. The defense boost will help a little, but the chance for them getting hit will still be 74%, so they'll get hit alot. since the other stats are unchanged they'll also get killed alot.

Now compare in a single round: warden with 1 attack, flags with an average of 10 attacks (3.5*2 + half again). Flags hit 7 times (68%), 20% of those cause damage; that's about 1.4, and those attacks will most likely just do a point or two of damage. 1 flag dead. Next round: warden regenerates up to full, same deal, 1 flag dead. It's just possible that every so often a flag will get incredibly lucky and roll several sixes - extreme damage. So it's possible that they might kill a warden or two if they got lucky. Of course the wardens are berserk so won't rout. More than likely the flags won't be able to do serious enough damage to the wardens to win, and it should only take 4 rounds for all the flags to be dead.

All that to say: I think you're wrong that flagellants would take down wardens if each were optimally blessed. Thus maybe sacred troops other than flagellants will be useful.

p.s. sorry about the length of the post.

[apoger]

What you aren't taking into account is the very potent bonuses that the flags get for attacking in mass. By your math flags in Dom I would have just as much trouble. However any testing at all will show that the flags will blow right though the wardens.

The theory is all well and good, however real game testing often shows the flaws in theory. As soon as the demo comes out I will do a tremendous amount of testing. For now I can only tell you what happens in Dom I. In Dom I flags crush wardens. From what I see of the Dom II system, it doesn't look like anything has changed that, however once I do testing I'll be delighted to report the results and form my opinions from facts.