Poll: How much will the new bless effects affect your pretender design?

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by licker:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nerfix:
Pretender Gods cannot be blessed by any means in Dominions II.

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Pretender Gods are permanently blessed arn't they? Ok maybe you don't call it blessing per se, but they have the benefits of their magic paths non the less.

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No they aren't permanently blessed. And every mage gets those secondary bonuses from magic paths.

[licker]

Well my point is what's the difference between being blessed and getting the benefits anyway?

I guess the benefits could be different, but I didn't think so from what I saw on my thug pretenders with berzerking and added defense...

[mr.white]

What exactly does the Blood 9 blessing "blood curse" do?

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Psitticine:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I don't see how you arrive at that figure - it isn't even a multiple of 8. I make it 360.

It's 441 if you accidentally add 81 because it is 1 AM and you've just spent 3+ hours trying to moderate a busy, busy board.

IOW, just a silly mistake on my part. I'm not sure what exactly I did there.

I'm not sure what else to add (and excuse me for snipping your post; I'm not trying to ignore your points - I'm just not coming up with anything to say that I haven't said already.)

I think you make some intelligent comments; all I can say is that, FWIW, the blessing system has played very well for me. I hope they don't tinker too much with it for exactly the same reasons you hope they do: I don't want the game to lose any flavor or variety and the blessing scheme is one of my very favorite parts.

The best solution to things like this is usually to allow people their choice in the matter. A good idea might be to have a system where players could set how expensive magical power is to suit their own tastes. The problem there, however, lies in the UI: that choice would need to be made before or during god design, and yet the game and its settings are chosen after the god design is completed.

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I have a quick fix for that: instead of capping god designs at 500 points, just have each god record its total point value. Then when you start a game you would set the maximum point value of gods that are allowed in that game.

So if I want to see more powerful magic and blessings on everyone I could play with 600 or 700 point gods.

Of course, this would probably go better if the suggestion to record multiple gods per nation (in the newlords folder) were implemented.

[Saber Cherry]

Over 500 points... hmm, that wouldn't change much, if points were still better spent on scales than magic. IMO.

I think making magic cheaper is the best solution. Though some of the other ones (like adding dominion strength to path strength, or starting bonuses at 3/8 rather than 4/9, or giving a bonus every level rather than every two levels, or putting in more low-level holy troops) are also good alone, or in additon to cheaper magic.

[licker]

Another side effect of increasing points is to devalue points as a whole. This hurts the nations that take more disadvantages. Though it is arguable that those nations need to lose some of their edge.

I'd rather see pretenders come with *minimun* levels of required magic that you pick. Its one way to force up the magic on some pretenders. That is a pretender may start with 2 in fire and 1 in astral, but have a requirement to have a total of 8 picks in magic. You can decide where to put the other 5 picks...

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Over 500 points... hmm, that wouldn't change much, if points were still better spent on scales than magic. IMO.

True, but that's variable depending on map size and nation.

It seems to me that most gods can't afford strong magic even if they don't care much about scales.

I think making magic cheaper is the best solution. Though some of the other ones (like adding dominion strength to path strength, or starting bonuses at 3/8 rather than 4/9, or giving a bonus every level rather than every two levels, or putting in more low-level holy troops) are also good alone, or in additon to cheaper magic.

I don't think all magic should be cheaper - I think high level magic should be cheaper. I'd just like to see magic costs rise less steeply with magic level.

I already posted the current curve. What if we instead made magic cost per level (4 + 4*(level above base))? Then for a god who starts with 2 power in a path we have:

power 2, cost 0
power 3, cost 8, total 8
power 4, cost 12, total 20
power 5, cost 16, total 36
power 6, cost 20, total 56
power 7, cost 24, total 80
power 8, cost 28, total 108
power 9, cost 32, total 140
power 10, cost 36, total 176

High levels of power in a path are still expensive, but not ludicrously expensive. In particular if your god starts out with 2 in a path (few start with more than 2), reaching 9 is about as expensive as taking one scale to +3. The relative importance of a level 9 blessing and a +3 scale is hard to quantify, but under the current system one level 9 (in a path that you start out fairly strong in) costs almost as much as two +3 scales. That's what makes it look like high magic levels aren't worth it.

Note that with this rewrite of the cost system, level 7 (from a base of 2) costs as much as level 6 under the old system. Level 9 under the new system costs about halfway between the old level 7 and 8.

If you started with one level 2 and one level 1, you could raise them to 9 and 9 for 316 - which is a lot of points, but you could do it if you weren't doing much of anything else (a lot of god forms cost a base of 100 or so, and you'd probably like to have a castle other than watchtower too.) There's no question that this would be powerful for a nation that had good sacred troops. Would it be more powerful than spending 300 points on scales (say, Order 3 Prod 2 Luck 2, or Order 2 Prod 2 Luck 1 Magic 2)? Depends on the nation, map, nearby opponents... without positive scales, will you even be able to afford a lot of priests and sacred troops? Or supply them once you have them? A strong bless won't help you much in early expansion; a strong mage God might; Order and Productivity are guaranteed to.


This is of course neglecting the nations that get free design points (Abysia, Caelum, Jotunheim, Ashen Empire/Soul Gates/Carrion Woods). But as I already posted, I want strong magic and blessings to be viable for nations that can't afford to take a lot of negative scales.

Some point-costing themes introduce a new sacred troop (Iron Faith and Desert Tombs come to mind). What's the point of getting those if you can't get a strong blessing to go with them?