Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.

[RadiantFleet]

Some other factors to consider when enhancing the AI. These are observations based on my preferred dom 1 playing style, one nation human, all of the rest impossible level AI, large map, and indep set to 9. On these settings, I usually win about 90% of the time.

-AI should take different decision trees depending on type of dominion/pretender that a nation has. Consider the following two configurations for Abysia:

Maxed dominion, growth, and order with a fortified city, a zero point pretender, max heat scale, max drain scale, no extra magic for pretender.

With this configuration, slow steady growth works really well. Build a temple in every territory, use defense heavily (minimum of 21, 41 for key territories, with later upgrades to 60). Armies are only for taking territory, not for defense. Your dominion is your main weapon, you take and hold territory, the spread of your dominion does the rest.

Maxed dominion, max heat scale, max drain scale, Castle or some other decent defense city, lich pretender (ie immortal) with a four in every sphere minimum.

With this pretender, magic summoning, immortality, and your dominion is the key. Build as many temples as possible. Buying units is unimportant, summon creatures that create new creatures (ie summer lions are nice, but fire elemental leaders are better, they make more fire elementals). Minimal defense in provinces (ie 21) to protect against sniping attacks, but armies are the serious defenders (because the only cost is leaders). Leaders that can create units should _never_ be sent into combat, only sit in castles and create more units.

These two configurations illustrate how different good strategies can be, depending on the characteristics of a nation and the pretender selected.

What I would really like is to have some way of specifying what pretender a computer player can use, or at least designing the ones in the "pool" of pretenders that are chosen from. Also, exposing the various decision formulas that the AI uses in files that can be modified would be great. It would help out illwinter by getting a bunch of people working on improved AI rules while letting illwinter focus on their great game engine, etc.

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

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Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

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Originally posted by Alneyan:


I would like a confirmation: is Dominions AI cheating? I would tend to believe it is not the case. If so, Dominions AI is really not that bad, and is one of the few AIs that does not rely on extra resources to provide a challenge. And I will be then in the side of "The AI isn't that bad, really".

The AI is not cheating on normal level. At higher levels it gets more design points and earns more money. Thats about it.

I got an idea regarding AI dependancy on LI when I was away. Vacations are 'foyson' for the mind.


Regarding fort construction. I'm not sure how the AI works, but where would you build a fortress? Consider fort type, nation, geography, income, resources etc.

What is the most important matter? How should they be weighted? How much shall current wars affect the spending of time and money. What army should build the fortress?

I wouldn't mind a numerical evaluation of this such as:
Castle cost / 2 < Income + res + gem income x 25 + neighbors x 5
Add a couple of other conditions.

Just to make you think. Eventually it might result in something good.

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Some responses to these questions:

1. In your list of factors you don't list population type and sites in the candidate province. I often fort to enable building more of an indep troop (especially amazon sacred cavalries, which are all useful; but also e.g. heavy cavalry for Caelum or C'tis, longbows/crossbows for any nation with weak missile troops) and/or protecting a location with high gem income or useful mages (either pop based (amazons again) or site based).

A good first rule is that if you can't spend all your gold buying useful units in forts you already have, you need a new one; if your units are frequently starving because of insufficient supplies far from your forts, you need a new one in that area. (Which reminds me - supply production can be a factor in fort location too.)

Rarely build a fort next to another fort (it is occasionally worth it for something that can be only found in that province, for example I will always fort a province that contains Mount Chaining in Dom I - in Dom II it isn't as powerful but is still pretty good if you are a blood using nation).

2. You don't need an army to build a fort. I usually don't use one. There is some risk in building a fort where you don't have an army, but I find it is often better to have the army doing something else - either taking more indeps (if they are available) or distracting the enemy so he doesn't have time to Call of the Winds every place I might be building a fort. Get some province defense though - it's annoying to have your fort sieged by Call of the Winds (and of course even more annoying to have the construction interrupted).

3. Fort selection value: (Adjustment * (resources + supplies)) + (gems x 10) + value of rare units recruitable here (this value should depend on the rarity and power of the unit; longbows and crossbows count a little, amazon cavalries and mages count more, something like grey knights would count a lot; mages with paths different from your nation are more valuable than mages that duplicate your nation's paths) + misc site value (enter-to-summons, cost reducers).

I don't generally take income into account directly (although the first two terms value high population provinces more). "Adjustment" depends on the admin and gold cost of the castle; higher admin and cost should raise the value of the adjustment. Adjustment = 0 if there is an adjacent fort (this will reduce fort-next-to-fort except when gem income, rare unit value, or site value are high, which are the exceptions to the no-adjacent-fort rule).

4. Once you have built a fort, build a temple. Temples are vulnerable to enemy attack, but in a fort they are far less vulnerable. Then they spread your dominion, let you recruit priests and preach better. Mictlan might be an exception to this rule because their temples don't radiate - but blood sacrifices are more effective when performed in temples (IIRC), so they might want to build temples anyway so that they can sacrifice there. It's better to preach or sacrifice inside a fort because it protects the priest (high level priests especially are pretty expensive).

Build a lab if you are likely to want to recruit any mages (if you are fortifying because of local troops or sites you probably want a lab for that anyway; some nations like Marignon always want to recruit mages) or summon/construct troops there to supplement your recruited troops (C'tis usually wants to do this; but Desert Tombs C'tis can do without the lab, if you don't mind shipping in your unpriests).

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[Aristoteles]

Very good guys, just post your ideas and experiences about the AI.
This way the devs won't be pissed. Saying that the AI sucks won't help, we must tell them about the weak parts of it, like I did in my list.

[ November 03, 2003, 13:33: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

[Zerger]

Hm we all know that the AI won't build forts, or just very rarely. No wonder that the AI will recruit weak troops and militias than.

The AI on impossible level is expanding very fast, even with indep. str. +9.
His home province with the fort is very far usually.
The AI is recruiting heavy troops in his home province, but it won't make 1-2 stronger armies from them. It is making lot of wandering armies with a few heavy units in all of them.

I think the these things should be tweaked first:
- Enforce the AI with a script to build more forts in strategic locations. ((strat. loc.: province which is surrounded by other provinces of the AI, near mountain ranges, do not build a fort next to an other fort, etc..))
- Enforce the AI with a script to recruit more heavy troops/sacred troops&priests/summon more monsters.

I think these are the most important things to fix first of all.
Ther are many more, the list of Aristoteles is well written about them.

[Gandalf Parker]

OK maybe this will address some of the issues about AI. Or at least clarify some. If nothing else its a VERY different game for the demo.

http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Poke_Eye.map
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Poke_Eye.tga

OK the actual image is the same eye one. But the map file is very changed. The game is now called "a Poke in the Eye". Be sure to read the prophet announcements since they can be very interesting. And be sure to scout carefully even on indep settings of 2.

Download those 2 files to the maps directory under your dominions2demo game.

If you are interested in the programming code, just ask.
If you think its crap, show me the one you did and I would be interested.

[ November 03, 2003, 17:18: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[ywl]

Originally posted by Richard:
From what I have seen the beta testers have still been complaining about the AI. So this is not an issue of a late change that has crippled things, those testers STILL are getting their butts beat.

What I do see here is mostly veteran dom I players who know how to beat the game through practical experience from the first game. I also think some folks have judged it from limited playing time. Some people reported "THE AI IS THE WORST EVER!!!" within hours of the demo being released. Now tell me how you determine that from one game.

I am sure there are ways we can make the game better, but to say such things with such little to back it up is silly. If you have complaints, feel free to post them here, but it is much more productive to give specific examples and email files to Illwinter.

Now to the other stuff. Some people need to grow up on both sides. This is a game, not the WWF. Stop calling names or I will have to deal with that issue, and I don't want to have to do that.

If you want to get results, do this the right way. We have no problem working with people if they can PROVE there is an issue and work with the developer to fix it. Just posting constantly that you think the AI sucks and your are 3l33t won't get you anywhere.

It's a fair post.

I've played a few more games and in cases saw my major armies destroyed by the AIs. In one example, my favorite Pythium elite Emerald guards got totally wiped out by Jotun giants - I managed to got out alive only because Jotun got backstabbed by Man .

I've played Dom 1 for more than a year and of course, I would usually beat *all* the AIs if I put effort. But I guess, I could probably only do it in 3 out of 4 games.

But I also agree that the list of suggestions are quite constructive and useful for the program.

[DominionsFan]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
OK maybe this will address some of the issues about AI. Or at least clarify some. If nothing else its a VERY different game for the demo.

http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Poke_Eye.map
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Poke_Eye.tga

OK the actual image is the same eye one. But the map file is very changed. The game is now called "a Poke in the Eye". Be sure to read the prophet announcements since they can be very interesting. And be sure to scout carefully even on indep settings of 2.

Download those 2 files to the maps directory under your dominions2demo game.

If you are interested in the programming code, just ask.
If you think its crap, show me the one you did and I would be interested.

Whatcha done with the map file? Post some details plz.

[Alneyan]

EDIT: Sorry, silly double post.

[ November 03, 2003, 18:03: Message edited by: Alneyan ]