Concerns about lack of Tutorial and Price of Game

[Taqwus]

Past performance is no guarantee of future results, but Illwinter was no slouch about supporting the first Dominions game; patches not only fixed bugs as they were discovered, but also addressed balance issues and added features e.g. Move-and-Patrol. The Last Dom I patch, 1.15, was released Feb 4, 2003; not at all bad for a game released July 2, 2001.

I've only owned one previous Shrapnel-published, "Space Empires IV", but that went through something like... up to Version 1.44 or 1.45 or so before the Gold Version release, and a LOT of feature tweaks and additions happened if memory serves. Shrapnel does not seem to be a "one patch and abandon" company.

For a game with as much replayability as Dom 2 should have -- the 17 sides needing different playing styles, for instance -- and the amount of support I'd suspect that Illwinter and Shrapnel are likely to give, the price seems fair.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alneyan:
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And the graphics and music are impressive for Dominions 2, when you have played the first game at least. ...

Actually Dominions 1 does have music during battle, if you keep the CD in the drive! It was of the "hard rock" variety.

PvK

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Yes, but if you're used to the Dom I music, Dom II's music will blow you away. (Apologies to the composer of the Dom I music...)

Dom II is the cheapest game I have bought new in months (PC or PS2). Admittedly I got the pre-order discount, but I think that would be true even if I didn't count the preorder discount. Most games start at $50+ now. (Well, $49.95 anyway). It's called inflation.

[Mephisto]

It is an expensive game and especially for the continental Europeans you have to consider that to this price you have to add shipping and about 16% tax. Ordering from the UK doesn't make it any better. Not all the people have 60€ (about 72 US$) for a game and some just have to chose what game they buy. If you can get sometimes nearly 2 games right in the shop next door for the price you get one game from Shrapnel it's hard to decide. A distributor in continental Europe would help Shrapnel with their selling IMHO.

P.S.: I hope they begin the shipping soon.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
Past performance is no guarantee of future results, but Illwinter was no slouch about supporting the first Dominions game; patches not only fixed bugs as they were discovered, but also addressed balance issues and added features e.g. Move-and-Patrol. The Last Dom I patch, 1.15, was released Feb 4, 2003; not at all bad for a game released July 2, 2001.

I've only owned one previous Shrapnel-published, "Space Empires IV", but that went through something like... up to Version 1.44 or 1.45 or so before the Gold Version release, and a LOT of feature tweaks and additions happened if memory serves. Shrapnel does not seem to be a "one patch and abandon" company.

For a game with as much replayability as Dom 2 should have -- the 17 sides needing different playing styles, for instance -- and the amount of support I'd suspect that Illwinter and Shrapnel are likely to give, the price seems fair.

Actually, some nations need different playing styles for different themes of the same nation. Ashen Empire/Soul Gates being the most obvious example (Carrion Woods too). Probably also Last of the Tuatha, Diabolical Faith, Miasma, Niefelheim, and others.

I'd expect Dom II to be supported at least as well as Dom I - after all, they now have Shrapnel's personnel to draw on too (at least for some things).

[Psitticine]

As usual, I'm a bit short on hard facts and the like, but there are some things I can say with confidence.

I've been involved in several projects for Shrapnel. One was a patch for TWE with so much new content that most companies would labelled it an expansion pack and charged for it instead of giving it away for free. I've never seen them just grab the money and orphan the product, unlike so many other game companies do. That's one of the reasons I hang around this place the way I do.

Shrapnel has always been great about continuing to support their products. I think they are very aware of the value of a satisfied customer, which also leads me to believe the pricing of Dom II might not be entirely a matter of choice.

As I've mentioned, I was involved in the text editing. I didn't do the ingame text (although my partner edited the unit descriptions) but I did do the item and spell lists. Those lists are to be printed, in color if my info is still correct, and that is a LOT of printing cost. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that having this extensive hardcopy documention is what has boosted the price above Shrapnel's norm.

It's a great game, and I can't find anything in the stores around here that's cheaper (except for the grab-bag "day old" sale products, which can either be overlooked classics or just plain turkeys.) When it comes to quality, I have come to expect a price of $50 or more, which makes me feel $45 for Dom II is a good deal.

(Oh, and for those who are thinking "what does he care? He'll probably get a copy for being a beta-tester!", I should mention that I'm going to be buying several copies to give as Christmas presents this year, so the price is a viable concern for me as well.)

Let me add that I do think the game needs more of a tutorial, however, and am hoping there will be downloads to assist in closing that gap. The idea of "starter" games seems like an excellent move in that direction.

[Alneyan]

Originally posted by Mephisto:
It is an expensive game and especially for the continental Europeans you have to consider that to this price you have to add shipping and about 16% tax. Ordering from the UK doesn't make it any better. Not all the people have 60€ (about 72 US$) for a game and some just have to chose what game they buy. If you can get sometimes nearly 2 games right in the shop next door for the price you get one game from Shrapnel it's hard to decide. A distributor in continental Europe would help Shrapnel with their selling IMHO.

P.S.: I hope they begin the shipping soon.

Yes I support this suggestion obviously, it would make things much easier for us, poor Europeans. Out of idle curiosity, is this 16% tax present in all countries of the EU?

PvK, I only had the demo for Dominions 1 at that time. (I seem to recall there were musics though... Or was I daydreaming?)

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Alneyan:
Out of idle curiosity, is this 16% tax present in all countries of the EU?

Don't know. That's here in Germany. Some other European countries have a higher VAT. Anyway, Tim Brooks just posted in another thread that one should use the Global Priority Ordering as these orders are labelled "Documents" and therefore don't get the VAT added. This really helps to cut down the price (16% in my case ).

[Alneyan]

Originally posted by Mephisto:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alneyan:
Out of idle curiosity, is this 16% tax present in all countries of the EU?

Don't know. That's here in Germany. Some other European countries have a higher VAT. Anyway, Tim Brooks just posted in another thread that one should use the Global Priority Ordering as these orders are labelled "Documents" and therefore don't get the VAT added. This really helps to cut down the price (16% in my case ).

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Yes, thanks a lot for the link on this other thread! It seems like there are even distributors in Europe. Sweet.

[Humer]

Originally posted by Particle:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dryton:
I would like to get everyone's feedback on this or just some explanation to a loyal Shrapnel fan as to why I should pay 45.95 for a game that should be priced around 34.95 or less.

I second this.

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Hm. I consider Dominions 2 well worth the price. It's not just the game is great (demo), but the dev *really* take time to listen to community. Even when the game was in development. This in itself is huge. And if the patching process is anywhere near of what it was in Dom I... well notch an another one.

And I don't even scratch the replayability of 17 nations, themes, maps and such.

So I ask thee: Why Dom 2 should be priced about $34,85 or less? Because it's distributed by Shrapnelgames?

- Humer

[Alneyan]

Originally posted by Tim Brooks:
Hi All:
The manual for Dominions II is our largest to date, weighing in at 146 pages. It is however, not in color as someone else posted. Wish we could have done it in color, but for a manual this size, the price of printing in color would have been over $30.00 per unit. Still, the manual is huge and includes a reference of all magic items and spells.

$30.00 for a single manual in color? I have been quite surprised by this figure. I do trust you, but such a price seems... well, *very* expensive. Manuals that expensive are indeed a problem. I don't mind a black and white manual myself, as long as it is complete.

I agree hearthly with the points you raised in your post. (Especially when it comes to the emphasis upon gameplay rather than shiny new graphics)

[ October 31, 2003, 13:04: Message edited by: Alneyan ]