Blood Magic

[Wendigo]

>Soul slay - needs the extra range due to larger battlefields.

There's a difference between adapting to the larger battlefield & being able to hit from one point of the diagonal to the other tho.

-snip list-

Indeed, some counters will be usable in some situations & some in others

>Considering what's been lost, that's not a very big list. I'd trade that all in for Dom I's star fire and the ability to use control the dead and wither bones versus 'demons'.

You know, if you had worded your argument this way I might actually have supported it.

>>See? it's not that hard to acept that one might be wrong...can you do it?

>Sure can.
>Show me where I've been wrong and we'll get a start on it.

Keep reading...

>>And if you can strenghten your analysis by pointing to the changes in one direction while ignoring the changes in the opposite direction, so much the better, right?

>I have no idea what you are talking about.
If you can show me 'changes in the opposite direction' that would influence the discussion, then let's hear them. If you have a problem with my arguments then make a counter argument.

You said (paraphrasing, ignore tone): 'SCs are going to rule Dom II more than Dom, because these counters are gone'. I call that painting an incomplete picture because you were ignoring the new counters available (or pending discovery).

>>based on incomplete and premature information.

>Yeah, it's not like I did any testing.

No doubt you did, likely way more than me seeing as I often run into Rl time issues nowadays.

Premature because the game is not even out, and when it be released it will be an initial Version that can, (& will be) fine tuned, same as Dom I was.

Incomplete because you are basing a balance analysis on playing a demo with 6 nations out of 14 final ones, and without a chance to test spells over lv4.

This is all the more surprising coming from someone like you, who got so much replay & enjoyment out of the 1st installment of the series.

[apoger]

>You said (paraphrasing, ignore tone): 'SCs are going to rule Dom II more than Dom, because these counters are gone'.

Rather than say "rule" I'd say that they are a balance issue.

The important issues raised here aren't the lack of counters (which is an issue) for SC's, but rather the problems of blood magic being having low cost summons and easy blood hunting.


>Premature because the game is not even out,

It's never to early to consider gameplay issues. IMHO.


>and when it be released it will be an initial Version that can, (& will be) fine tuned, same as Dom I was.

Good. Let's get that process started.


>Incomplete because you are basing a balance analysis on playing a demo with 6 nations out of 14 final ones, and without a chance to test spells over lv4.

This issue of this thread was ease of hunting and low cost of blood summons. Both these issues can be demonstrated with the tools at hand.

The exact measure of the balance between SC's and potential counters will have to wait until the full game can be examined. I have never said otherwise.

If you look at my original essay, you will see that I offer my tests as fact but my conclusion as opinion.

If the full game changes the situation I'll change my opinion accordingly.


>This is all the more surprising coming from someone like you, who got so much replay & enjoyment out of the 1st installment of the series.

And as such I shouldn't bring potential game imbalances to the attention of Illwinter?

Quite the opposite. I feel that hiding the issues and allowing gameplay to suffer does no justice to a game that I enjoy so much.

[ November 03, 2003, 22:38: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Wendigo]

[quote]Originally posted by apoger:
>This issue of this thread was ease of hunting and low cost of blood summons. Both these issues can be demonstrated with the tools at hand.

You will have noticed that rather than addressing just your post in this thread I have been talking about your (broader) point regarding the topic in various other threads.

>The exact measure of the balance between SC's and potential counters will have to wait until the full game can be examined. I have never said otherwise.

It could certainly be deducted otherwise from other previous Posts, good to hear you clarify this.

>This is all the more surprising coming from someone like you, who got so much replay & enjoyment out of the 1st installment of the series.

>And as such I shouldn't bring potential game imbalances to the attention of Illwinter?

Definitely, so long as the aproach is balanced by a look at both the pros & cons, and with a tone as neutral as posible. It didn't look that way, for the reasons previously stated.

I am not apealing at your emotional atachment to the game to turn an eye away, rather apealing to your knowledge that these guys have indeed done a good job in the past and there should be no reason for them to not do so now.

Leaving aside whether there will be more blood income or less, (on which we do not seem to agree), an argument of the type 'These counters have been lost, and the gain of these others does not make up for it' would have been much stronger on your part than the one you initially used.

[Jasper]

I think you guys might get a more productive discussion if you narrowed the scope of debate a bit...

For instance, how do the blood economies of Abysia compare between Dom 1 and Dom 2? How does the income difference between them look when scaled by the diminished Dom 2 gold income? How much worse are the patrolling side effects in Dom 2 than Dom 1?

[apoger]

The point of this thread was issues with blood magics low costs and ease of hunting. That is what I made my "strong argument" about.

The reason I failed to make a strong argument for 'These counters have been lost, and the gain of these others does not make up for it' is beacuse that was not the topic that I was arguing for.

There has been commentary about super combatant counters in other threads. I saw no reason to add such discussion to this thread as it had little to do with my testing or the blood slave economy issues.

Since this seems to be the central theme to your criticism, perhaps you would like start up a thread dedicated to discussing it.

[apoger]

>I think you guys might get a more productive discussion if you narrowed the scope of debate a bit...

Focus is good.

>For instance, how do the blood economies of Abysia compare between Dom 1 and Dom 2? How does the income difference between them look when scaled by the diminished Dom 2 gold income?

Now that's a complex issue! I'll give that some thought and start a new thread on it.

>How much worse are the patrolling side effects in Dom 2 than Dom 1?

I have found that lowering taxes supresses unrest totally until blood hunting gets moderately heavy. So you can get away with -no patrols- for some time. Longer if you spread out the hunters. In some ways this makes things faster than in Dom I. In Dom I it was hard to shut down taxes totally since each province provided more revenue. Since less gold is generated in Dom II, lowering one or two provinces to 0% seems inconsequential.

Patrols in Dom II seem to do more population damage. However since we are talking about 0% taxes, the gold/population is already being sacrificed.

Again, a complex issue. I'll do some testing and see if I can put together some coherent thoughts on the matter.

[ November 03, 2003, 23:41: Message edited by: apoger ]

[LordArioch]

In my limited blood experience so far I had 5 apprentice warlocks blood search for 1 turn in a 0 tax province. I got 17 blood slaves and the unrest shot up above 100. Unless that was a really unlucky blood search turn it seems to me that unrest will be a major problem for blood.