So far what nations look strong... and weak?

[Joonie73]

Wow. What a comprehensive list. Thanks!

If you were to rank the top 3 or 4 strongest and weakest nations overall, what would you say?

Originally posted by apoger:
There are MANY nations and sub-themes, and the game is new. It's going to take a while to get a solid grip on what's good and bad.

That said... this is my gut reaction to the major nations/themes;

Abysia - Slow starter, but good endgame. Blood magic ramps up nice. Don't underestimate the Warlocks.

Abysia, Blood of Humans - Weak. I don't like it. The full game doesn't seem to be enforcing scales like the demo. A change between Versions? Even so, there's nothing that gets my attention.

Atlantis - Like the defense of starting underwater. Like the Dagon. Good magics. A strong nation from start to finish.

Pythium - Good troops and good magic. Even without "Gateway V.1" Pythium still has lots of what it takes to win, and no real weakness.

Pythium, Serpent Cult - The Hydra's can be abused with the new bless effects. However the magics are weak. I don't like having all eggs in one basket. It's got power, but weakness as well. Not as good as regular Pythium. IMHO.

Man - Good fast expansion. Nice spells. Crones still rock. Stronger than Dom1. Now a real contender.

Man, Last of the Tuatha - Not bad, but I like the crones better than the Tuatha mage selection.

Ulm - Was second rate in Dom1 and may be thrid rate in Dom2. Smiths now very weak. Total lack of ability to handle super combants will make life hard on multiplayer Ulm.

C'tis - Death magic not hammered as bad as other paths. C'tis comes out way ahead compared to Dom1. More complex than some other nations, but there is potency in the Dom2 lizards.

C'tis, Desert Tombs - The theme is expensive. Takes a bit too long to ramp up the free summons. I think I could do better undead work using the Sauromancers from regular C'tis. It's a cute theme, and it might have a place in low resource scenarios... but in general I'd say it's not a top competitor.

C'tis, Miasma - I don't like the mashmaster. The disease effect isn't strong enough to matter much. I prefer the regular theme.

Arcoscephale - Good troops. Elephants rock. Good magic. Always a contender.

Caelum - Mammoths rock. Even without air elementals, the high seraphs are great. The mobility of the flyers will be stronger than in Dom1 due to the slower strategic moves of many enemy troops. Some weakness versus super combatants, however the sheer speed of Caelum may make it a terror in multiplayer.

Caelum, Return of the Raptors - I don't like losing air magic in favor of a tidbit of death magic. I don't see any real advantage in this theme over the regular caelum. The Raven Guard are nice, but not enough to convice me to drop the air magic.

Ermor, Broken Empire - This is a meaty theme! It's got good troops. It's got evil priests summoning undead. Very playable.

Ermor, Ashen Empire - I.E. DomI Ermor. This Ermor's dominion always attracts heat in multiplayer. In Dom1 Ermor could field a serious super combatant when others couldn't imagine doing the same. Now it's not so unique. Also the new bless/sacred system will encourage players to have lots of priest power floating around. I don't like Ashen Empire for multiplayer. It's great for single play, as the computer AI can't handle the deadly dominion.

Ermor, Soul Gate - So far this looks similar to Ashen Empire, just using incorporeal undead instead of skeltons/zombies. If someone can find a reason for this theme... let me know.

Marignon - All things considered I think Marignon is stronger in Dom2. Not hugely, but enough. It's good, but not great.

Marignon, Diabolical Faith - I don't like that it requires a minium Turmoil +1 and Heat +1. The access to blood magic is sweet, but the economic hardship is rough. I'll pass on this theme.

Marignon, Fires of Faith - Heat +1, yuk. Just to get the effect of a level-1 priest preaching in your provinces? Is there something that I'm missing? Doesn't work for me.

Pangaea - Weaker troops but much better magic. This looks to be pretty dedicated to the maenad theme. Could be OK. Doesn't leap out at me.

Pangaea, Carrion Woods - Pumping carrion creatures is about as effective as the meanad theme. Better quality, fewer numbers. It's alright.

Pangaea, New Era - Stronger troops, but less magic than other Pangaean themes. Very nice ground pounders. Some weakness versus super combatants. Not quite a top contender, but solid.

Vanheim - Loss of lesser air elementals hurt Vanhiem more than others air Users. Valks fly. It's got air and earth magic. Not sure if the new sacred/bless system helped the Van. All said and done, Vanheim is good, but not great. Unless I'm missing something.

Vanheim, Helheim - A bit of death magic? Nah. Does nothing for me.

Vanhiem, Midgard - Level 2 astral mage. Air 2 mage with 2 random picks (for 160 gold). Yummy! I like this theme. No valks though. I think this is the strongest Vanheim theme.

Jotunheim, Iron Woods - Effectively this is the "goblin" theme. Bleh. Nothing to see here.

Jotunheim, Neifelheim - Big freaky giants! A potential super combatant that I can buy for gold. Nice! This theme has some potential.

Jotunheim, Utgard - Siethkona. Real death magic. Some astral also. Probably the most well rounded Jotunhiem theme. This is the theme I would play right now. Strong.

R'lyeh - Much more "Cthulhu" flavor than Dom1. Protected water start. Looks like the mind bLasts are dangerous this time around. I need more practice with this new theme. It's got potential.

Mictlan - Free slaves. They're garbage, but hey, it's *free* garbage. Blood magic, nice. Good, but expensive access to magic paths. The eagle warriors interest me. I need to do some work with Mictlan before real judgement... but right now I like what I see. It's a complex nation. If you are new to the game, move along.

T'ien Ch'i - I like the diverse military. Magic is a bit weak, but has interesting summons. It's at least good. Possibly more...

T'ien Ch'i, Spring and Autumn - Requires turmoil +1. Has weaker military but stronger magics than regular theme. Not as interesting, to me. The forced turmoil is too harsh.

T'ien Ch'i, Barbarian Kings - Better military... but turmoil +2. Weak economics self-defeats the improved military. No interest from me.

Machaka - Diverse troops. Outstanding assassins. The magic is a bit weak, but adequate. Good, but not great. Lot's of fun though. Can't beat giant spiders for sheer smile factor.


That's my preliminary thoughts. More details as I discover them.

[apoger]

>I don't like the mashmaster

>>Can't understand why you don't like him. 40 more gold for the extra magic seems correctly priced to me. He's much more flexible than the Sauromancer, who's basically a one-trick pony (although a good one at it, I admit).


You hit the nail on the head. I prefer that my primary national mage be top notch in one skill rather than OK in a few.

[Gandalf Parker]

Note what he said as far as

There are MANY nations and sub-themes, and the game is new. It's going to take a while to get a solid grip on what's good and bad.
That said... this is my gut reaction to the major nations/themes;

Keep in mind that this is a deep and balanced game. If there was an obviously strongest nation then it would not be a well-done game.

A) a nation is strong if it matches the players style. If you want to play like a tank-commander then take ulm. If you tend to prefer research and magic then try Arcosphale. If you like air-dropped invasions try Man. If you like CIA secret armys try Pangaea.

B) a nation is weak if its strong points are ones you dont really use.

C) it can be a rude awakening in your first few multiplayer games to discover that your "weak" nations are someone elses "strongest" nations.

In Dom1 we went thru a LONG and enjoyable process of declaring certain nations to be too strong or unbalanced, then discovering that the balance was already there but in another nation we hadnt played seriously yet. I think the Devs had a great time waiting and watching for us to discover these.

We started saying "if you THINK its too strong then search for the response" and also that "if you think its weak and worthless then get creative in how it might be used".
EVENTUALLY we did find some things that we just couldnt balance out and tweaks showed up in patches for those. But it was a long way off from where we thought we had found such things. Personally I think its abit early to judge.

Some specialize in testing the "too strong" stuff. I like to concentrate on finding something interesting about the "who would ever choose this" stuff.

But that was a great list. One persons list (dont like Pangaeas default huh? hee hee hee). But everyones list will be different. Thats the great thing about this game.

[ November 18, 2003, 15:20: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[apoger]

>Wow. What a comprehensive list. Thanks!

My pleasure.


>If you were to rank the top 3 or 4 strongest and weakest nations overall, what would you say?

That's a tough call at this point. I'll give it a shot, with the disclaimer that the list will likely change as we become more experienced with the new game. Also keep in mind that I am looking at this from a distinctly multiplayer point of view.


Unreserved thumbs up:
Pythium
Man
Arcoscephale
Caelum


Potent:
Atlantis
Jotunheim, Utgard
Jotunheim, Neifelheim
R'lyeh
C'tis
Mictlan
Abysia
Machaka
Pythium, Serpent Cult
Vanhiem, Midgard

Solid:
T'ien Ch'i
Ermor, Broken Empire
Man, Last of the Tuatha
C'tis, Desert Tombs
C'tis, Miasma
Caelum, Return of the Raptors
Marignon
Pangaea
Pangaea, New Era
Pangaea, Carrion Woods
Vanheim
Jotunheim, Iron Woods

Slightly weak:
Ulm
Abysia, Blood of Humans
Ermor, Ashen Empire
Ermor, Soul Gate
Vanheim, Helheim
T'ien Ch'i, Spring and Autumn


Questionable:
Marignon, Diabolical Faith
Marignon, Fires of Faith
T'ien Ch'i, Barbarian Kings

[Joonie73]

Apoger, Arcos as one of the strongest nations? That is very surprising. I don't see any huge upside for them except their battle affliction-healing priestesses.

Originally posted by apoger:
>Wow. What a comprehensive list. Thanks!

My pleasure.


>If you were to rank the top 3 or 4 strongest and weakest nations overall, what would you say?

That's a tough call at this point. I'll give it a shot, with the disclaimer that the list will likely change as we become more experienced with the new game. Also keep in mind that I am looking at this from a distinctly multiplayer point of view.


Unreserved thumbs up:
Pythium
Man
Arcoscephale
Caelum


Potent:
Atlantis
Jotunheim, Utgard
Jotunheim, Neifelheim
R'lyeh
C'tis
Mictlan
Abysia
Machaka
Pythium, Serpent Cult
Vanhiem, Midgard

Solid:
T'ien Ch'i
Ermor, Broken Empire
Man, Last of the Tuatha
C'tis, Desert Tombs
C'tis, Miasma
Caelum, Return of the Raptors
Marignon
Pangaea
Pangaea, New Era
Pangaea, Carrion Woods
Vanheim
Jotunheim, Iron Woods

Slightly weak:
Ulm
Abysia, Blood of Humans
Ermor, Ashen Empire
Ermor, Soul Gate
Vanheim, Helheim
T'ien Ch'i, Spring and Autumn


Questionable:
Marignon, Diabolical Faith
Marignon, Fires of Faith
T'ien Ch'i, Barbarian Kings

Arco's get Elephants, Cheap Hoplites, Priestesses (of course), Mystic (Blood anyone?), and Astrologer with 3 in Astral plus a random and of couse they get the Natarajah pretender (Caelum too; I think Alex likes the Natty a little too much )

They have huge advantages if you play certain strategies and are solid performers all around. Even Last night when I tried a Turmoil 3, Luck 3 Crossbreedothon/Lucky Arco they were able to pump out very decent armies (with -21% Income no less) and mystics/astro/priestess's every turn.

[Gandalf Parker]

Arcosphale has always been a strong nation for those who want powerful magics for late-game. As the strongest in this area I always felt they should have been alittle weaker in the troops. Its always been difficult NOT to rank them number one game-winner in the multiplayer modes.