CherryMod Thread

[Arralen]

.. my 0,02 EUR on that matter:

Ninjas
.. oh no, please don't do that. There wheren't any people like black-clad mummy clans which stalked the night.
Those where an "invention" of Hongkong filmmakers who hired some workers from the docks as "sword fodder".

There where some stealthy assassines out there, but they didn't hide in the dark but under the disguise of common men edited: or women . So if you're giving the nation an assasine, make it look like some peasant or something.

dual wielding
It isn't "barbaric" to wield 2 Katana, it's almost impossible. Even using Katana/Wakizashi at the same time is technically difficult, so it's a thing for elite troops only.

2-handed swords
The Katana is basically bastard sword, it can be wielded both 1- and 2-handed. In it's "final" form it's not longer than european Longswords.
However, it's just that the swords got shorter over time. The first Katana, and before them the tachi even more, where 20 to 50cm longer and 2-handed only.

[barbaric swords
Using 2 straight swords was considered barbaric, simply as it was chinese
But was only after ~900, the very first swords in Japan where imported chinese weapons, or derived from those, and had an straight blade.
There's that tale about that "swords of the gods" (cannot remember the name ..) that is described as straight and 2-edged, though.

Everything AFAIK and IMHO, o.c.

yours
Arralen

[ January 06, 2004, 05:13: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Arralen:
.. my 0,02 EUR on that matter:

.. oh no, please don't do that. There wheren't any people like black-clad mummy clans which stalked the night.
Those where an "invention" of Hongkong filmmakers who hired some workers from the docks as "sword fodder".

There where some stealthy assassines out there, but they didn't hide in the dark but under the disguise of common men edited: or women . So if you're giving the nation an assasine, make it look like some peasant or something.

Ninjas

Bwahahaha!!! Well, maybe I'll add a new "Ninja of the Dirt Poor Clan that is Forced to Dress Like A Peasant" unit. But all you're doing is encouraging me to add more ninja, not fewer

As for the other info... hmmm. Thanks!

But I have to ask, now. Everyone seems to have good reasons for samurai to not have wakizashis... does anyone know why they did? Were they for blocking, or just a "sidearm"?

-Cherry

[atul]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
But I have to ask, now. Everyone seems to have good reasons for samurai to not have wakizashis... does anyone know why they did? Were they for blocking, or just a "sidearm"?

As far as I know: ceremonial purposes, for times their main sword was unavailable (broken/disarmed/etc), close quarter fights. Not used in conjunction, but instead of katana.

As for that 'barbaric' notion, I stand corrected. Anyway, dual-wielding long weapons is featured in films a lot because it is flashy, not because it would actually be a viable way to fight (Uma Thurman in Kill Bill, anyone?-).

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:



But I have to ask, now. Everyone seems to have good reasons for samurai to not have wakizashis... does anyone know why they did? Were they for blocking, or just a "sidearm"?

-Cherry

Indeed, the samurais did not as a rule use two weapons in battle. The wakizashi was a back-up weapon, and a ceremonial one, not an off-hand one.

However, there was a famous Japanese samouraï (I can't remember the name) that did develop a two weapon style for katana and wakizashi, together. That style
was designed to fight against several opponents at once. It's also the kind of style that needs year to learn. So if you want to include it for elite troops, that would be all right I think.

Oh, and I would say that in that case the wakizashi is mostly for defensive purpose, so I would give these troops better defence, but only a weak attack with the wakizashi. Sort of like a parrying dagger.

[ January 06, 2004, 10:08: Message edited by: General Tacticus ]

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Arralen:
.. my 0,02 EUR on that matter:

Ninjas
.. oh no, please don't do that. There wheren't any people like black-clad mummy clans which stalked the night.
Those where an "invention" of Hongkong filmmakers who hired some workers from the docks as "sword fodder".

There where some stealthy assassines out there, but they didn't hide in the dark but under the disguise of common men edited: or women . So if you're giving the nation an assasine, make it look like some peasant or something.

Well, they weren't any fireball lobbing wizards in history either, and I would argue that black mummy ninjas are acceptable, if not as historically correct, then as a classic fantasy. Beside, I am sure that on some occasions, some of them did dress in black and blackened their faces. It's quite effective in some situations...

Most soldiers, only had standard issue weapons. As they, or their lord, or country, only had enough money to give them what they needed, not what they wanted. Which in most cases ment a primary and if you were lucky, a secondary weapon. Most commonly the secondary weapon was a knife, or dagger, or fork that was used as an eating utensil, shovel, comb, razor.

By and large fighting with two weapons made for clumsy combat and as most SCA fanbois will comment, fighting with a shield is about 100x more effective, though it doesn't look cool

Most of the ambidexterous units in the game at current are rare. Only a particular type are given it (Bane Spider, Lava Warrior, Warlord, etc) I don't think it would be all that unfathomable to have the monks and the ninjas dual wield, but not every elite unit they have.

Also, just a footnote. Most samurai used naginata as their primary weapon, from either horseback or on foot as it afforded them both reach to fight either type of troop (cavalry or foot) and ease of training as well as being able to bash things they couldn't cut.

[Arralen]

Do not mix up common soldiers and samurai - should be obvious that the latter are more equal to the european/near eastern knights.
However, their swords where mostly of at least "good" qualitity, even if they didn't have rice straw sandals to put on their feet in winter.
European knights on the other hand had some crappy armament at times ...

dual-wield
When I said "elite" troops, I meant that. Not just the beefed-up Version of infantry. In DOM terms this would most likely be the holy troop type.

As someone said - wielding 2 full-seized swords effectivly is very hard in every regard. The chinese swords used this way are generally rather short (up to 80cm) and very lightly build - I doubt they would pierce an late 1100 european-style double layered chain mail, neither trusting nor slashing.

Sometimes dual-wielding of the daisho is attributed to Miramoto Musashi ("Book of 5 Rings"), dating in the late 16th (early 17th - not shure about this) century. But I somehow doubt that it took really that long until someone got it right. On the other hand, as I said before, swords got shorter over time, and around 1100 it would have been simply impossible to use the Tachi/Katana of 1,4m one-handed all time.

The Wakizashi isn't an eastern form of the main-gauche, though. It's mostly 50-70 cm long and a real shortsword, not some form of dagger. It is carried at all times, so when in a friends house it's the main weapon, as the longsword is left at the entrance. In regular combat it is used when fighting in confined spaces or when the battle is that "tight" that the combatants get into grappling range regularly. It is used to deflect incoming blows, than counter-attack while the fighter closes in if used as a main weapon. Doing this while using it off-hand is incredibly difficult ...
Last -and least - it was used to commit seppuku ...

main weapon
At times, the bow was the primary weapon, sometimes the naginata, then some sword in varying length. I think personal preference and the randomness of situation would have had a strong influence.
Keep in mind, though, that in general blades with less than "good" quality where used for either swords given to peasant-soldiers or sword-lances in general. This shows that the lances where considered disposable to some degree.

Everything AFAIK and IMHO, as ever...

A.

edited: spelling

[ January 08, 2004, 07:48: Message edited by: Arralen ]