Alternate Victory Conditions and the AIs who love them

licker · #1 November 20th, 2003, 06:08 PM

Ok, so I finally was able to finish my first SP game the other night. I was going as C'tis against 6 other difficult AIs on the Eye map (plenty of room to expand). I also set up the victory points condition for the win. Here's what I saw.

The AI seemingly ignored the VP provinces. Even when it would take one, it wouldn't defend it very well, even when I was attacking that AI, and was real close to winning. Bummer

So my question (again) is does the AI take into consideration any of the VC settings? My guess is no from what I saw (also saw an AI with a 3VP province *next to* his capitol that he still hadn't taken on turn 35!!).

I also noticed that the AIs didn't build any forts (or labs for that matter) anywhere (nothing new), and I think this is a big problem for them as the game progresses. Especially with nations like Ulm who can really benefit from another resource center at which to spend their extra cash on better units than the indie HI and Militia.

I did see some sizable armies from Arco with a boat load of Heart Companions (at least 30 in an army of about 100), but there was no priest to bless them!!! We stumbled on each other both going for the same indie province. My force of Swamp Gaurds, LI, and some summoned undead just stomped them, there were no priests or mages along with that army, and though they outnumbered me 100 to 60 it wasn't close as my priests kept my morale up, and my mages kept theirs down

Anyway, it was a fun game, but I still saw the same things I saw in the demo that the AI is lacking in (game went about 60 turns...) no fort building, very poor gem incomes, and the inability to (seemingly) to recognze the new VC.

If the AI indeed is not set up to recognize VC that's fine, I'd just like to know so that in SP games I won't use them.

SurvivalistMerc · #2 November 20th, 2003, 06:24 PM

The AI does appear to search for sites using spells. I noticed major increases in gem income with respect to tien'chi.

Granted, they don't have the gem income of a rainbow mage. But who does?

SurvivalistMerc · #3 November 20th, 2003, 06:30 PM

It's good to knwo that the AI doesn't pay attention to victory conditions. I agree...I wasn't likely to use them anyway in SP, but I especially won't now.

Licker, are you saying that even if an AI controls half the map, he won't build forts even if it looks as if he might get cut off from his supply line?

licker · #4 November 20th, 2003, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
The AI does appear to search for sites using spells. I noticed major increases in gem income with respect to tien'chi.

Granted, they don't have the gem income of a rainbow mage. But who does?

Well I wasn't using a rainbow mage to search, and C'tis doesn't have the most balanced mages to search with anyway...

All I'm pointing out (again) is that from my experience in several demo games and now one complete game is that whatever I do with regards to gem searching I'm always well ahead of the AI nations. And that's even when I'm very unlucky in finding any sites at all.

What's more bothersome to me is the inability of the AI to build any forts at all. I'd imagine most people like to get a 2nd fort before turn 20 so that they can use their extra income on national units. I think that this in large part effects the army compostions of the AI later game. They also seem to be lacking in mages, which is also fixable by building forts (and labs) or just labs in specific provinces. I've not captured a single lab from the AI (outside of capitols), even when the province has good recruitable mages.

Just more fuel for the fire... I hope others will report their findings on this topic and that the devs will respond accordingly.

Let me also say that I don't think the AI is 'bad' as others have insinuated. I just think that it's somehow 'handicapped' with respect to building forts and labs (it sure builds the @#$@# out of temples...), and that handicap limits it later in the game.

licker · #5 November 20th, 2003, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
It's good to knwo that the AI doesn't pay attention to victory conditions. I agree...I wasn't likely to use them anyway in SP, but I especially won't now.

Licker, are you saying that even if an AI controls half the map, he won't build forts even if it looks as if he might get cut off from his supply line?

I can't answer your question, I've not seen an AI get that big. I did see Ulm take out Machaka and get a 2nd fort that way, but Ulm was over 30 provinces when that happened, and hadn't built another fort on his own. I had built 2 by that time, and if I hadn't gone for a 'quick' VP win at that point I would have built another 2 to allow me to get my national units to the front (and for defense) more quickly.

Taqwus · #6 November 20th, 2003, 06:52 PM

The AI, even on Normal, will definitely build labs, forts, temples, and rather large armies if you give it the time.
Sitting back and letting a single AI take 66-75% of a medium-sized map can make for an interesting slugfest, at least if you like large-scale battles with high-end magic. Mmmm, 1500+ units and 120+ commanders in a single battle, Flame Storms and Death Winds oh my!

Johan K · #7 November 20th, 2003, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by licker:
The AI seemingly ignored the VP provinces. Even when it would take one, it wouldn't defend it very well, even when I was attacking that AI, and was real close to winning. Bummer

The AI does not take any victory conditions into account. So if you want victory conditions in a solo game I recommend VPs in capitals only or victory by a huge amount of dominion or provinces. The AI likes to have many castles, provinces and temples anyway.

Random VPs will make it way too easy to win by casting a few 'Call of the Wild' on your non VP aware opponent.

HJ · #8 November 20th, 2003, 11:00 PM

I still haven't had time to finish my first game, but it's now turn 60, on Orania XXL map, and no AI has build a second fort so far. Ulm controls as many provinces as all the rest of us put together, and has a proportional gold income, but still has a single fort. I think I captured one Pythium province that had a lab that was build, and not found, though, and temples are definitely *not* a problem. Magic research is also doing ok, as is the gold income and dominion, but gem income is not so peachy. But then again, I spent way too much on forts, in hindsight, and the AIs have much larger armies, even if they are of a lower quality. They have mages as well, and equip them with items and gems for the most part. But the supply, i.e. building forts, and gem income/summons do seem to be the problem from my experience so far.

[ November 20, 2003, 21:01: Message edited by: HJ ]

licker · #9 November 21st, 2003, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johan K:

quote:
Originally posted by licker:
The AI seemingly ignored the VP provinces. Even when it would take one, it wouldn't defend it very well, even when I was attacking that AI, and was real close to winning. Bummer

The AI does not take any victory conditions into account. So if you want victory conditions in a solo game I recommend VPs in capitals only or victory by a huge amount of dominion or provinces. The AI likes to have many castles, provinces and temples anyway.

Random VPs will make it way too easy to win by casting a few 'Call of the Wild' on your non VP aware opponent.

Thanks for the clarification

I'm glad to hear others saying that the AIs build forts and labs, though I've not seen it myself...

I still think the metrics for fort building should be looked into, as a second fort around turn 20-30 should make a big difference

-Storm- · #10 November 21st, 2003, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by licker:
Ok, so I finally was able to finish my first SP game the other night. I was going as C'tis against 6 other difficult AIs on the Eye map (plenty of room to expand). I also set up the victory points condition for the win. Here's what I saw.

The AI seemingly ignored the VP provinces. Even when it would take one, it wouldn't defend it very well, even when I was attacking that AI, and was real close to winning. Bummer

So my question (again) is does the AI take into consideration any of the VC settings? My guess is no from what I saw (also saw an AI with a 3VP province *next to* his capitol that he still hadn't taken on turn 35!!).

I also noticed that the AIs didn't build any forts (or labs for that matter) anywhere (nothing new), and I think this is a big problem for them as the game progresses. Especially with nations like Ulm who can really benefit from another resource center at which to spend their extra cash on better units than the indie HI and Militia.

I did see some sizable armies from Arco with a boat load of Heart Companions (at least 30 in an army of about 100), but there was no priest to bless them!!! We stumbled on each other both going for the same indie province. My force of Swamp Gaurds, LI, and some summoned undead just stomped them, there were no priests or mages along with that army, and though they outnumbered me 100 to 60 it wasn't close as my priests kept my morale up, and my mages kept theirs down

Anyway, it was a fun game, but I still saw the same things I saw in the demo that the AI is lacking in (game went about 60 turns...) no fort building, very poor gem incomes, and the inability to (seemingly) to recognze the new VC.

If the AI indeed is not set up to recognize VC that's fine, I'd just like to know so that in SP games I won't use them.

You should post these in the AI weaknesses thread.