Petition to change LUCK\ORDER Scales

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

quote:

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Originally posted by Catquiet:
Would you be happier if Magic gave a straight %20 percent bonus to the research pool per tick?

Possibly. I'd have to think about it for a while. The way it works now is more interesting, with weak mages affected more than strong mages, and the pretender rarely affected much at all... really, I think I'd prefer for the research effects to stay the same, and rebalancing of scales done more at the scale-cost level than scale-effect level. Though magic/drain affecting gem output seems logical and interesting to me.

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Although I usually agree with you, I don't want to see scale costs changed. 40 points per scale, for all scales, at all levels, is one of the few simple and easy to understand mechanics in Dom II, and I don't want to see it go away.

I'd rather see the scale effects become nOnlinear (if they have to) than the costs.

What would you say to +1/+2/+4 rp for magic, and -1/-1/-2 for drain? (keeping in mind that the MR effects happen at +/-2).

Extra luck increasing income would be logical to help fix the system, by making +Luck/+Order suddenly a viable choice... but it makes no sense conceptually to me. Why should luck and unluck predicatably affect your income?

They shouldn't predictably do so (in my opinion). Instead they should unpredictably do so.

I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the event system - but really bad events should be much more rare in luck scales, or not be allowed at all. Currently turmoil/luck is not viable, and order/unluck is too good, primarily because luck doesn't provide enough protection from game-losing events, and good events don't provide enough benefit to offset the very bad events.

Having them modify the chances of units gaining afflictions in lucky/unluck provinces, though... that would be interesting too. Right now the affliction chance for a hit is this: (Damage/HP). So a 20 HP unit taking 5 damage has a 25% chance of gaining an affliction. Something like (Damage*(10-Luck)/(10*HP)) would change that, so that the same situation in a -3 Luck province would give (5*(10+3)/(10*20))=32.5%, and a +3 Luck province would give a (5*(10-3)/(10*20))=17.5% of gaining an affliction.

Unluck would be a good scale for light-unit Machaka and BK Tien Chi, while Luck would be better for Ulm, Abysia, and Ermor... and everyone would be afraid to invade Unluck nations

-Cherry

Hmm, that could be interesting. But I think having it affect both sides indiscriminately might largely negate the effect (at least, if you want to make it something that adds to the benefits of luck and the pains of unluck).

Also, I wouldn't call Machaka a light-unit nation. I make extensive use of spider knights and black hunters, both of which are heavy units that I would hate to see get extra afflictions. (Nature-9 is pretty awesome for black hunters...)

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
I is not in Dom II, but I'm starting to believe it should be. There is a risk of a turmoil/luck default with this setting, but the use for luck-0 is more obvious and order/misfortune-3 is less viable.

Ack, it's not!? No wonder luck seems worse to me than it should be, and misfortune better! This was a very thematic effect in Dom 1, and certainly wasn't overpowered.

Returning it would be a definite improvement, with IMHO no chance of unbalancing turmoil/luck. Order 3 gives 13/7 the income of Turmoil 3 -- a nearly insurmountable difference! Even were Order/Turmoil changed to 5% income change per level this would IMHO still not be a problem.

[SurvivalistMerc]

I'm going to have to disagree slightly with respect to magic. It gives decreased percentage returns and increased percentage losses with scales.

But please remember that the cost/reward for taking the scale is linear (as pointed out by someone else here). And imagine a magic-3 Ctis. With shamen doing the research. These are sacred units and have less overall cost per research point than a sage imo. Plus, they seem to have more battle utility than a sage.

To give a unit like this, with around 4 rp or so, 3 extra rp is a 75% boost overall. Not bad. I'm going to stick with those who want the drain scale left alone.

With regard to luck, what would folks say to not only good and bad random events but also neutral ones that have good and bad elements? Your luck scale could turn some bad or good events into "neutral" ones depending on what scales you took. (I see the militia as "neutral" at best. But they do make good cannon fodder and give me an excuse to make that summer sword.)

I'll acknowledge that I'm still a total newb, so my assessment of value is very preliminary here.

[mr.white]

I think the main issue here is that the event system is broken. That skews the whole view of order since it has the additional benefit of disaster-protection, which you can't get any other way. I'm not so sure that it's too good without that aspect.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

quote:

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Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Having them modify the chances of units gaining afflictions in lucky/unluck provinces, though... that would be interesting too.

Hmm, that could be interesting. But I think having it affect both sides indiscriminately might largely negate the effect

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I really like this idea, and it sure hasn't to work indiscriminately. A positive luck scale should lower your chances to get afflictions only if you're fighting in your own dominion (just like you don't benefit from your neighbor's luck wrt events). It could even go further: luck could increase the chances for the enemy to get afflictions if he's fighting in your dominion.

On the same vein, I remember someone suggested a lucky dominion should give a bit of luck to your units, as long as they remain in your dominion - like the Luck spell, but only 5%/tick instead of 50%. I thought that was a cute idea.

Also, I wouldn't call Machaka a light-unit nation. I make extensive use of spider knights and black hunters

I could do without the spiders, I couldn't without the hoplites.

[apoger]

There have been many well thought out and excellent ideas here. Problem is that most of them are complex. It is hard to balance new complexity. Furthmore complexity is a very hard sell to Illwinter. I'm interested in seeing a fix this century.

To that end I offer the follwing thoughts.
The main issue is that dire events are -NOT FUN-. Nobody losses 10K population at the capital and thinks "Wow! I love Dominions". Secondly these events are not balanced. There is no 'population is increased by 10K' event. Gaining a cloak of displacement is sweet, but is no compenstation for the more serious dire events. These events add nothing to the game. I say a simple way to address the issue would be to *delete* them. It would only make the game better. Nobody would miss these events. Losing labs and chunks of gold is more than bad enough.

Without these catastrophic events, I suspect that Turmiol/Luck might be more balanced in respect to Order/Misfortune.

This might not be the best solution, but it is simple, and easy to implement. Often that has a 'magic' of it's own.

[Treebeard]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
On the same vein, I remember someone suggested a lucky dominion should give a bit of luck to your units, as long as they remain in your dominion - like the Luck spell, but only 5%/tick instead of 50%. I thought that was a cute idea.[/QB]

You know, that's a pretty good idea. Perhaps tone it down to 3-4% per level of luck.