D2 vs Aow:SM

[ceremony]

Originally posted by HJ:

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Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

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Originally posted by Altus:
SM is a great 'beer and pretzel' fantasy wargame. I've had a lot of fun with it.

A lot of people talk about beer and pretzel strategy games. What does that mean? What's the origin? Is it more fun playing Dominions II while consuming beer and pretzels? I don't think I've ever ingested them together.

-Cherry

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AFAIK, the term describes a game that you can play casually, without much mental effort, and finish in a short time span. I've seen it mentioned a lot on the Underdogs site.

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It's a boardgaming term. It was used to differentiate between hardcore wargames that required your full attention during your turn, where you had to manipulate many stacks of counters, or constantly consult the rules, or both. A beer-and-pretzels game was one in which you and your opponent could shoot the breeze while playing and drinking beer and eating pretzels. Of course, you can always drink beer and eat preztels, but it referred also to the general atmosphere, less mental effort, etc. as HJ said. Shorter games with simpler rules were more social. As an example, War in the Pacific was a hardcore wargame, while its "beer & pretzels" counterpart was Victory in the Pacific (which, ironically, was the much better game).

The term doesn't make much sense as applied to computer games, except maybe in the general sense of "less complex rules." Still, computer games require a different kind of attention than boardgames. I wouldn't call Shadow Magic a "beer & pretzels" game at all. You need to pay really close attention to a lot of things, much as you would in a hardcore wargame. I've had players hand me my *** in m/p because I miscounted by one movement point.

Dominions 2 is, in my opinion, a far superior design to Shadow Magic. But neither one is a "beer & pretzels" game.

[Elmo]

Lost my Last game of SM after misplacing an army by one hex. Ended up attacking with only half my force and lost both halves eventually. One thing I did not like about the game was the difficulty in seeing exactly which hex your units occupied. Even with the grid turned on it was tough sometimes.

I agree that SM is not beer and pretzels, at least not in MP mode.

Thanks again for all the feedback. I'm playing the demo with help from the walkthrough and so far it's a lot of fun, and a very different experience from SM.

[ November 26, 2003, 12:29: Message edited by: Elmo ]

[Elmo]

After all the positive feedback and a run through the demo I ordered D2. Now all I have to do is convince my wife it's not going under the Christmas tree!

PS - Now when is that patch coming out?

[ November 26, 2003, 15:42: Message edited by: Elmo ]

[MythicalMino]

cool...welcome to the pack

[Elmo]

Originally posted by cpbeller:
cool...welcome to the pack

Thanks. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do in this forum while waiting for the game to arrive!

[Altus]

Originally posted by ceremony:
I wouldn't call Shadow Magic a "beer & pretzels" game at all. You need to pay really close attention to a lot of things, much as you would in a hardcore wargame. I've had players hand me my *** in m/p because I miscounted by one movement point.

Dominions 2 is, in my opinion, a far superior design to Shadow Magic. But neither one is a "beer & pretzels" game.

If you read this thread from the beginning and my post, instead of quoting out of context, you would know both pertain to a comparison of SM and Dom2's AI, not multiplayer. I stand by my statement that SM is a 'beer & pretzel' fantasy wargame. I could beat the AI handily sloshed, let alone while imbibing a few beers.

The reason you might have seen the term 'beer & pretzels' on Underdog is because it originated before there were live multiplayer PC games, with the older PC titles; at that time even PBEM was revolutionary and BBS games were a wonder.

It referred to PC games and the quality, or lack thereof, of the AI. Actually, to use the term to describe a multiplayer game, PC or board, would be an insult to the players involved. Human oppponents require more attention and respect. I have never seen anyone use 'beer & pretzel' to describe multiplayer gameplay before.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Altus:

quote:

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Originally posted by ceremony:
I wouldn't call Shadow Magic a "beer & pretzels" game at all. You need to pay really close attention to a lot of things, much as you would in a hardcore wargame. I've had players hand me my *** in m/p because I miscounted by one movement point.

Dominions 2 is, in my opinion, a far superior design to Shadow Magic. But neither one is a "beer & pretzels" game.

If you read this thread from the beginning and my post, instead of quoting out of context, you would know both pertain to a comparison of SM and Dom2's AI, not multiplayer. I stand by my statement that SM is a 'beer & pretzel' fantasy wargame. I could beat the AI handily sloshed, let alone while imbibing a few beers.

The reason you might have seen the term 'beer & pretzels' on Underdog is because it originated before there were live multiplayer PC games, with the older PC titles; at that time even PBEM was revolutionary and BBS games were a wonder.

It referred to PC games and the quality, or lack thereof, of the AI. Actually, to use the term to describe a multiplayer game, PC or board, would be an insult to the players involved. Human oppponents require more attention and respect. I have never seen anyone use 'beer & pretzel' to describe multiplayer gameplay before.

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LOL. "Beer and pretzels" predates any PC gaming (yes, even ADVENT). It was used to refer to "lightweight" board/tabletop games (those that are simpler and/or more chance based and therefore require less serious thought - note that it's not the opponents that make a game beer & pretzels, but the games themselves).

A lousy AI doesn't make a game beer and pretzels - it just makes it a game with a lousy AI.

I wouldn't consider AOWSM beer and pretzels, either. But it's a lot closer than Dom II.