D2 vs Aow:SM

[Altus]

Originally posted by ceremony:
I wouldn't call Shadow Magic a "beer & pretzels" game at all. You need to pay really close attention to a lot of things, much as you would in a hardcore wargame. I've had players hand me my *** in m/p because I miscounted by one movement point.

Dominions 2 is, in my opinion, a far superior design to Shadow Magic. But neither one is a "beer & pretzels" game.

If you read this thread from the beginning and my post, instead of quoting out of context, you would know both pertain to a comparison of SM and Dom2's AI, not multiplayer. I stand by my statement that SM is a 'beer & pretzel' fantasy wargame. I could beat the AI handily sloshed, let alone while imbibing a few beers.

The reason you might have seen the term 'beer & pretzels' on Underdog is because it originated before there were live multiplayer PC games, with the older PC titles; at that time even PBEM was revolutionary and BBS games were a wonder.

It referred to PC games and the quality, or lack thereof, of the AI. Actually, to use the term to describe a multiplayer game, PC or board, would be an insult to the players involved. Human oppponents require more attention and respect. I have never seen anyone use 'beer & pretzel' to describe multiplayer gameplay before.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Altus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ceremony:
I wouldn't call Shadow Magic a "beer & pretzels" game at all. You need to pay really close attention to a lot of things, much as you would in a hardcore wargame. I've had players hand me my *** in m/p because I miscounted by one movement point.

Dominions 2 is, in my opinion, a far superior design to Shadow Magic. But neither one is a "beer & pretzels" game.

If you read this thread from the beginning and my post, instead of quoting out of context, you would know both pertain to a comparison of SM and Dom2's AI, not multiplayer. I stand by my statement that SM is a 'beer & pretzel' fantasy wargame. I could beat the AI handily sloshed, let alone while imbibing a few beers.

The reason you might have seen the term 'beer & pretzels' on Underdog is because it originated before there were live multiplayer PC games, with the older PC titles; at that time even PBEM was revolutionary and BBS games were a wonder.

It referred to PC games and the quality, or lack thereof, of the AI. Actually, to use the term to describe a multiplayer game, PC or board, would be an insult to the players involved. Human oppponents require more attention and respect. I have never seen anyone use 'beer & pretzel' to describe multiplayer gameplay before.

---

LOL. "Beer and pretzels" predates any PC gaming (yes, even ADVENT). It was used to refer to "lightweight" board/tabletop games (those that are simpler and/or more chance based and therefore require less serious thought - note that it's not the opponents that make a game beer & pretzels, but the games themselves).

A lousy AI doesn't make a game beer and pretzels - it just makes it a game with a lousy AI.

I wouldn't consider AOWSM beer and pretzels, either. But it's a lot closer than Dom II.

[Elmo]

I agree that the term came before computer games. Since I started playing beer and pretzels board games back in the 60's I feel somewhat qualified to post on the subject. IMO it referred more to the rules difficulty than anything else. Such games had easy to learn rules even if the play of the game wasn't always trivial. A game like Risk comes to mind as a good example. Very easy rules but it could still be a cutthroat game between skilled players.

[PvK]

Yep.

[Altus]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
"Beer and pretzels" predates any PC gaming (yes, even ADVENT). It was used to refer to "lightweight" board/tabletop games (those that are simpler and/or more chance based and therefore require less serious thought - note that it's not the opponents that make a game beer & pretzels, but the games themselves).

I did not mean to say the term was coined with PC games. I can recall it being thrown around in the old AH 'General' and Strategy & Tactics wargaming magazines. Yes, 'Beer & Pretzels' referred to the game itself and the general complexity of the game.

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
"I wouldn't consider AOWSM beer and pretzels, either. But it's a lot closer than Dom II.

I believe AoW:SM is 'beer & pretzels' compared to DOM2, just as I believe the Disciples series is 'beer & pretzels' when compared to the AoW game series.

[ceremony]

Originally posted by Altus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
"Beer and pretzels" predates any PC gaming (yes, even ADVENT). It was used to refer to "lightweight" board/tabletop games (those that are simpler and/or more chance based and therefore require less serious thought - note that it's not the opponents that make a game beer & pretzels, but the games themselves).

I did not mean to say the term was coined with PC games. I can recall it being thrown around in the old AH 'General' and Strategy & Tactics wargaming magazines. Yes, 'Beer & Pretzels' referred to the game itself and the general complexity of the game.

---

But below you just said it had to do with the quality of the AI? And as for being coined with PC games, that's what you seem to say right here:

"The reason you might have seen the term 'beer & pretzels' on Underdog is because it originated before there were live multiplayer PC games, with the older PC titles"

Originally posted by Altus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
"I wouldn't consider AOWSM beer and pretzels, either. But it's a lot closer than Dom II.

I believe AoW:SM is 'beer & pretzels' compared to DOM2, just as I believe the Disciples series is 'beer & pretzels' when compared to the AoW game series.

---

Well, we disagree then. AOW2 is less complex than Dom2, but beer & pretzels is not a comparative term, as I would use it anyway. Some games are beer & pretzels, some games are not. Flat Top is less complex than War in the Pacific, but it's not "beer & pretzels." It's just less complex.

[Elmo]

Great news for me. My wife just called to say D2 arrived in the mail today. Guess I'll be finding out first hand what the differences are between D2 and SM starting tonight!

Suddenly I'm not feeling well, must leave work early today...