What role does a shield play?

[Psitticine]

I believe he's talking about martial arts movies and the like, not actual Japanese military tradition.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Psitticine:
I believe he's talking about martial arts movies and the like, not actual Japanese military tradition.

Umm, errr... I'm not sure how to politely say this, but that sure doesn't fit with what I've read of Japanese military history -- although admitedly I'm an amateur not an expert.

Perhaps you could direct me to a source? I'm most curious to see how the Japanese made use of shields.

[Edit: Arg! I responded to the wrong post.]

[ December 03, 2003, 03:19: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Joonie73:
The Japanese used shields. What are you talking about?

You fool! What you saw were samurai spinning their swords so fast that they merely appeared to be large round shields!

And besides, there is no honor in hiding behind a shield

Seriously, though - I've never seen a Japanese shield, and I've seen lots of Japanese armor. I cannot say for certain that such things never existed, but I've never seen any evidence of them... most shields did not tend to be as durable as body armor or helmets (shields had a lower proportion of metal) so they didn't survive as well, and so, maybe in ancient history there were wooden Japanese shields that have since decayed... but I've never seen them in books, paintings, or any other art either...

[Jader]

Don't you think it's because katana is a two handed sword...

Actually they used shields called "tate" as protection from arrows or spears. And sometimes they used a "sode" (the piece of armor worn on the shoulder) which samurai could untie and use like buckler for deflecting arrows.

[Arralen]

... but they didn't have that much use for shields because they didn't have massed archers/slingers like all armies west of them had.

By the way, the Katana is a 1-hand sword which could be used with both hands.
It's on the upper end (max. 1,1m) of the length scale for 1-handed swords (0,7..1,1m), but superior balancing makes single handed usage very easy.

The older Tachi is up to 1,4m long, 2-handed and was used from horse-back at the time of the mongol invasion. At which point it served pourly, as the tips regularly broke off when a fighter hit a mongol armor with it. (felt, sometimes reinforced with "Couir bouillie"/"cuir bouilli" sp?, chain mail). Subsequently the swords got shorter (shortened) and developed to the Katana/Wakizasi - kombo.

Everything AFAIK, of course.

A.

[ December 03, 2003, 11:42: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Jader:
Don't you think it's because katana is a two handed sword...

That would be a No-Dachi, IIRC. A Katana is easily useable in one hand (better reach, from horseback, etc.); it's two handed use is a matter of style.

Actually they used shields called "tate" as protection from arrows or spears. And sometimes they used a "sode" (the piece of armor worn on the shoulder) which samurai could untie and use like buckler for deflecting arrows.

I'm having a hard time finding a reference to a "Tate" outside of Anime, no doubt because it also seems to be a common English name.

Perhaps you could provide a link or source? I'd dearly love to see a picture!

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Arralen:
... but they didn't have that much use for shields because they didn't have massed archers/slingers like all armies west of them had.

Army lists give them high proportions of Longbow armed Samurai in the early Samurai period. The lack of shields, given influence from China, is very odd. Explanations could include their armour being exceptionally effective against missile, the bow commonly used being not as good as it is generally rated, and that the focus on individual combat made shields less effective as they require a degree of discipline and formation tog et the full benifit.

Cheers

Keir