Stop the Insanity!

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Saxon:
Thanks a lot for the clarification. I have been trying a number of different things over the Last couple of days. Having a good group of body guards is essential early on, as you I do not have the construction skills to build decent items.

I wouldn't waste items on a Void Summoner - except a +1 astral item for Returning (Thaumaturgy 1), if you can't find a candidate priest with astral 2. Still, your summoner can be feebleminded and attacked in the same turn, and then you've lost the item and the gems. But when you reach Enchantment 5, have your current summoner cast Ritual of Returning, and he'll be almost safe - even a Greater Otherness can't kill a Starspawn in a single attack, and as soon as he takes damage the ritual will kick in. For even more safety, cast Ritual of Returning and use Returning in combat - as I'm not sure Ritual of Returning will work if you're succesfully Soul Slayed by a Vastness.

If you haven't researched Returning or Ritual of Returning yet, your first scripted spell should be Resist Magic if available. Then Quickness (if ?=water), Personal Luck, Body Ethereal, Ironskin (if ?=earth) or Barkskin (if ?=nature). That way you can survive the Vastnesses' Soul Slays (I once saw an unequipped, unescorted Starspawn kill a Vastness single-handedly), the Mind BLasts, and the trampling attacks of Othernesses (ethereal beings are hard to trample) while draining life from them.

10% of all summonings will wipe out your summoning skill, leaving you with the minor summons resulting from low skill as you start again.

It's 5% actually.

To be honest, it seems like a lot of investment for limited gain. To get the really good summons, you have to keep someone alive and sane for a long time. If he gets knocked out around turn 30, you have to start again and will not get much useful for that stage of the game. You know that feeble mind is going to knock him out at some point, so it is hard to justify.

Well, the Vastnesses, Greater Othernesses, Things that should not be, etc. are truly fearsome beasts, and can justify a lot of things. And you want that at no risk, just for an initial investment of 150 gold? BTW, a Starspawn priest's "half-life" is ~14 turns (at that point his chances to be feebleminded are 50%), so basically entering the gate costs you ~15 gold/turn (including upkeep). Not so expensive when you consider what you can get from it.

Put another way, it is an expensive lottery ticket and I am not sure the prize is being paid!

I think just the opposite. And these summons are so much fun!

[ January 13, 2004, 06:02: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Saber Cherry]

Well, I got a Starspawn up to 35. By then he had summoned 3 vastnesses... I gift of reasoned all of them (a pretend game, no opponent pressure). One, I set to summoning... it got feebleminded. Still strong, though.

One was taken out by a horde of Ice Fiends.

One invaded Abysia, and got beaten back... then another... then another. The Last one, I empowered in water and nature so he could cast quickness, luck, regeneration, relief, and then attack... and what can I say, that new Divine Glyph is incredibly powerful. Of course, the Vastness doesn't work well against high-MR, weaponles enemies. But it does against indies - you can warp it anywhere on the map and win=) I made one my prophet, too. No item slots though...

[Saxon]

Hmm, interesting. Let me re-phrase. It is a lottery and I have yet to win! I have yet to see the really big guys, with the exception of an Horror which ate my units. Knowing that the big guys are out there makes me more willing to keep trying. The main reason I have been put off this is that I have not gotten anything decent after spending quite a lot of time on it.

The way you break down the cost makes the price seem lower. However, spending the 150 early on does carry a higher opportunity cost than the 15 a turn would suggest, so it is still pretty weighty.

My impression is that magic items are pretty important for survivability, as both my priest and the guards are frequently all eaten. Once I got a couple of decent items, it was just the guards providing a snack and buying some time. Pendant of Luck stood out as an easy to get early item which was useful. Effectively cutting damage in half is a big plus.

One other thing, the calculation of the half life of a summoner. I think it would be more than 15 turns. The reason is that early on, when the skill is low, you get less success. As such, not every turn counts towards possible insanity, my impression is only successful attempts result in insanity. I would guess that 15 successful summons probably take until turn 30. That is the mid or end point of most games, so you probably only get one of these guys, who gets any good, each time you play. However, if you did take that into account in your calculation, it would be great to know.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Saxon:
Hmm, interesting. Let me re-phrase. It is a lottery and I have yet to win!

I'm really sorry for you. I've run a decent bunch of tests with R'lyeh to get a (very) rough estimate of the quality and frequency of summons, and I can say I'm rather satisfied with the results. Just checked the only R'lyeh test game that's left on my computer, it's turn 31 and I have 3 Formless Spawns, 4 Elder Things, 4 Othernesses, and 11(!) Greater Othernesses, and some smaller fry. That's about 1 Greater Otherness every 3 turns, not so bad I'd say. My summoner has a skill of 11 [edit: incorrect value], and he's the second one I'm using. The first one was an astral-2 priest who was scripted for Returning, unfortunately his brain was damaged before he had a chance to summon anything. I must add I have Misfortune +3 (with Order +3), so I'm rather sceptic when I read Posts claiming that Luck/Misfortone has an effect on Void summoning.

I have yet to see the really big guys, with the exception of an Horror which ate my units. Knowing that the big guys are out there makes me more willing to keep trying. The main reason I have been put off this is that I have not gotten anything decent after spending quite a lot of time on it.

What can I say? Either you're outrageously unlucky or I'm outrageously lucky, but then I was lucky in about a dozen different games, so I suspect the former.

The way you break down the cost makes the price seem lower. However, spending the 150 early on does carry a higher opportunity cost than the 15 a turn would suggest, so it is still pretty weighty.

That's true, but there's no other option, and the earlier you try the better the compounding effect on your summoner's skill.

My impression is that magic items are pretty important for survivability, as both my priest and the guards are frequently all eaten. Once I got a couple of decent items, it was just the guards providing a snack and buying some time. Pendant of Luck stood out as an easy to get early item which was useful. Effectively cutting damage in half is a big plus.

I always beeline for Alteration 3 then Enchantment 1 to get the survival skills I need, unless my first priest comes with astral-2 (then I'll immediately get Thaumaturgy 1 for Returning instead). You don't need Pendants of Luck when all your priests can cast the spell, and it increases the overall cost of your summoner. With these levels of research your priests have the tools they need to survive. I've had naked priests fight several monstrosities bigger than them and survive (that's including Vastnesses and Greater Othernesses). The only things that cause me real problems are the Formless Spawns packs and the Greater Othernesses when they come in numbers. Things That Should Not Be are probably an even bigger threat, but I've seen only 2 so far and neither was hostile, so I've never seen them fight my priests.

One other thing, the calculation of the half life of a summoner. I think it would be more than 15 turns. The reason is that early on, when the skill is low, you get less success. As such, not every turn counts towards possible insanity, my impression is only successful attempts result in insanity. I would guess that 15 successful summons probably take until turn 30. That is the mid or end point of most games, so you probably only get one of these guys, who gets any good, each time you play. However, if you did take that into account in your calculation, it would be great to know.

Hmmm no, I assumed this probability was just a flat 5% per attempt, but I might well be wrong, and you true. Although in the game I referred to above, I'm pretty sure my first summoner was insane before summoning anything, but I forgot check if his failed attempt earned him his first point in summoning skill.

[ January 13, 2004, 11:06: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[mivayan]

> Greater Otherness can't kill a Starspawn in a
> single attack, and as soon as he takes damage the
> ritual will kick in

I had a starspawn get attacked quite early by a horror: flying, 4 armor-negating attacks with no mr save... nasty! Would ritual of returning have helped? The priest died on the first combat round, but probably survived one or two of the four attacks. the ritual would have to take effect somewhere. Body guards would probably have helped, and maybe a lucky amulet.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by mivayan:
I had a starspawn get attacked quite early by a horror: flying, 4 armor-negating attacks with no mr save... nasty! Would ritual of returning have helped? The priest died on the first combat round, but probably survived one or two of the four attacks.

I believe RoR kicks in as soon as you take 1 point of damage, unless that very attack kills you, so in your case the Starspawn should have survived. With the spell Returning, you'd be totally safe - unless you got insanity while attracting that Horror.

the ritual would have to take effect somewhere. Body guards would probably have helped, and maybe a lucky amulet.

If, like I suggest, your Starspawn's first move is to cast Resist Magic, then yes, in that case bodyguards and a Luck pendant would have definitely helped him to survive for a couple more rounds. But I doubt the final outcome would be any different.

BTW, do you guys often see Horrors? I'd say they're even rarer than Vastnesses in my own tests: got 5 Vastnesses (1 hostile), and only 2 Horrors so far.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Yes. To clarify: The void gate is meant to be used with Starspawns, even though it is not in the description of the gate or the unit. Any astral mage can enter, but normally there's a 75% (IIRC) chance of feeblemind, while Starspawns have only a 5% chance, and a certain hero has a 2% chance.

The description of the gate needs to have that info added, as currently it is driving newbies insane. Which is something Ryleh should never do...

So if you capture and conquer Ryleh... don't be using the gate??
That's too bad... if that's the case.