Blood?

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:
Hordes from Hell.

Blood magic is worth it just for this spell.

I've heard you say this a couple of times but I really have to ask why? Lvl 5 spell for a bunch of crappy imps (and imps are crap) and one devil for 30 blood slaves and a level 4 blood mage - what is the big deal? Sure you can cast them all over the place but I don't think it is worth the mnassive expenditure that is establishing a blood economy for Hordes of Hell - they are useful but not that good.

I have spent half a game being harassed by people using rituals to summon monsters in my "unprotected zones" and I have never found it that hard to deal with - decent level of defenses plus a few extra troops in strategically placed provinces you don't much want to lose and castles + a few patrallers in provinces that really matter. It has never seemed to me that I'm expending anything like the effort in fighting off harrassing rituals that the casters is spending casting them. Sure you can probably use the rituals more effectively than they have been used against me and I have had success using them but only significant success vs an unwary opponent.

What am I missing about Hordes from Hell?

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Truper:
Sigh. Ice Devils sure aren't what they used to be. Ironic MP story:

summoned the bad boy... and he had no hand slots! No Wraith Sword for him.

Noooooooooooooooooooooo!

[warning rant mode ahead]

It would seem that the Dom1 players who called for the nerfing of blood have got their wish. Great.

Blood used to be fun, real fun - now its supposed to be worth it for Hordes from Hell???? Give me a break.

Sure you can do things with high level blood but in order to do so you have to channel resources that could be spent on expansion (which has a very high rate of return) and I question that its worth it. But most of all where is the fun in this? Take something that was really interesting and enjoyable and turn it into custard - yay!

Ice Devils have no hand slots? That is is so sad. No Devils to play with, no Ice Devils to look forward to, no Pazzazu to aim at just Horde from Hell and some silly fire magic devils who you don't really need. Aaaaaaaarrgggh!

*Gurggle Gurggle* - the sound of blood going down the drain.

Keir

[Graeme Dice]

Ice Devils have no hand slots? That is is so sad.

Have you actually ever looked at the seven different Ice Devils that you can receive? Nycator has two ice fists, and thus can't wield any other weapons. One of them summons free frost fiends, another is an unholy 3 priest. One has weaker physical stats but also has astral 2, which is very useful against anyone that isn't an astral king. The fifth has much better leadership abilities than the others. Number six has a hell sword and stinger built in, and is therefore immune to heat from the get go. The seventh is a fairly standard big attacker with a paralyzing stinger and some other weapon built in.

[apoger]

>Sure you can do things with high level blood but in order to do so you have to channel resources that could be spent on expansion

And how is that different from all the rest of the magic schools?


>Ice Devils have no hand slots?

Only one is missing it's hands. The others are fine.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:
>Sure you can do things with high level blood but in order to do so you have to channel resources that could be spent on expansion

And how is that different from all the rest of the magic schools?

Other schools get useful combat spells costing no gems which can be used early in the game.

Research used for other schools of magic is shared to a significant degree so that conjuration doesn't just get you fire spells.

The quantity of investment in getting other schools of magic up and running us much, much lower than blood.

The hit done to Pangaea to research eagle eyes to enhance their starting spell panic is minor but still distracts from expansion. Its probably worth it. Abysia starts with the spell Flare which used by an Anathament Dragon will give you a handy boost early - though you have to invest in the more expensive Dragon to do so. These are the sorts of querstions you face with other scholls of magic. Blood you don't even look at early due to the high cost of setup. In return it needs to be more powerful down the track not just Hordes from Hell powerful.

Maybe its the way I play the game and have seen other PBEM games played - fast. In a brutal world of pretenders striving for Asdcension I find things develop quick and late game doesn't necesserily come. The vast majority of PBEM games I have been in have ended in the mid game. As I'm not sure I'll have significant blood capability by that time I question the value of blood.

cheers

Keir

[apoger]

You need to keep in mind which nations are built to use blood magic.

Abysia
-the Demonbred can use Blood Boil at reaserch-1 for a no-slave armor negating attack.
-Demonbred have exatly the right skill to cast Bind Devil.
-the Warlocks are tailor made to cast Hordes form hell.
-Hunting is made easy by the cheap Warlock Apprentice.


Mictlan
-Has blood-1 mages for easy/cheap hunting
-Starts with bind fiend and bind spine devil pre-researched
-Can upgrade national mages for easy access to many big blood summons


Pangaea
-Cross Breeding is cool.
-Awaken Dark Vines now very cheap for what you get.


Jotunheim
-Skratti have the correct skills to cast Bind Frost Fiend, and can be empowered to cast Bind Ice Devil.
-Illwinter is custom made for some serious Jotuheim domination.


Marignon [Diabolical Faith]
-Starts with Bind Harlequin, which isn't the greatest, but it's not bad.
-Has cheap blood-1 mage for easy/cheap hunting
-Like Abysia can use Blood Boil for battle.
-Like Abysia has the right skills for Bind Devil.


Vanheim
-Is a very minor blood nation... but I guess the Van could empower to be able to cast Bind Storm Demon.


Everyone else
-Isn't a blood nation and should need to spend some effort to garner power from a list that isn't natural for them.


You also must keep in mind that blood hunting is an economy that the player can control and cultivate. This is very powerful compared to gold and gems/sites which are limited in nature.


I'm actually happy to see blood magic reduced to the level it's at. In fact I still think it's a bit too potent due to the players ability to control the investment into the blood economy. Well that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Ice Devils have no hand slots? That is is so sad.

Have you actually ever looked at the seven different Ice Devils that you can receive? .

---

Obviously not thanks for posting the details.

The reason I haven't summoned lots of big blood badies in Dom2 is simple - the game has reached the decided phase in my test games before I can get the big bad blood summons. I've played blood with Mictlan, Abysia, Jotun and Pangaea under Dom2. Only Abysia got to use its blood meaningfully before the game was resolved. When I have played Abysia, Jotun and Pangaea and ignored the blood I have done better than when I used it - much better. I used blood alot in dom1 and I miss it. Sure it will still be fun for people who play a slower paced game but for me its looking bleak.

What I would like to see is the ability to build demonic armies. Dom2 IMO is not about super combatents its about armies - much more than dom1. For blood to have its "rightful" place in such an order you need to be able to build up serious numbers of lesser devils for your demonic hordes. I have had a strong urge to use Spine Devils since I first looked at blood magic and its an itch I would love to able to scratch.

Cheers

Keir