Move Along, Nothing to See Here

[Gandalf Parker]

Dom1 generated alot of excitement in places such as the strategy newsGroups. Obviously not from the "buy a pretty box" crowd of average gamers. What kept it in the conversation is that it was the best game for people into wide variety and deep strategy.

And alot of the discssion did also revolve around the graphics, interface, learning curve, etc. What kept us going was the fact that the developers were in the newsgroup joining in the discussions. Well actually, I feel like I should say the programmers and graphic artists were there. This was one of the few games Ive ever been involved in where I felt we were all developers rather than just complaining Users.

Now Dom2 exists. Most of what we asked for is in it. Much of what we have asked for in this new forum for Dom2 has been acknowledged by the programmers. I fully expect numerous patches. Not to fix bugs, but to add our requested features.

This is not an off-the-shelf game, and in my opinion its not a game for off-the-shelf Users. IF you can get past the learning curve then I can almost gaurantee this is a game which will outlive a dozen off the shelf games.

[ January 06, 2004, 16:02: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[aldin]

I find myself really confused about the underlying complaint, namely that the game has a poor interface and (the game) is unpolished. Let me explain.

One of the games that is widely acknowledged as being highly polished with a great interface is Warcraft III. When I tried playing that game I ultimately came to realize that, interface-wise, there were many things that needed to be done which could only effectively be done by hotkey and which weren't at all obvious to a new player.

Dom II, by contrast, is completely accessable with a mouse. If there's something you want to do you can probably click around and find it. All it takes is the realization that much of the visible information can be interacted with. Once you know what you want to do, Dom II has a HUGE set of hotkeys that let you easily manage almost every usual function.

Warcraft III's 'polish' seems primarily to be in it's simplicity. There is more-or-less a 'right' way to set up your base that quickly becomes automatic because the number of options is small - you need to harvest resources which means you build the resource harvest units and buildings first then you either upgrade your resource gathering ability or start the intial armies all while scouting the surrounding area.

Dom II's polish is in the details. Every time you try a different type of Pretender with any given theme/nation you have to reconfigure the way you play the game to a certain extent. Ulm with the Iron Faith theme and an Astral 10 Pretender plays completely differently from Standard Ulm with a Rainbow Pretender. The polish shows in how many different VALID ways there are to play.

Yes. There IS a learning curve, and it IS severe. But the basic complaint should have been that the game was too complex, not that the interface is bad or that the game is unpolished. Though to be fair, I suppose that may be the benefit of having survived the initial part of the learning curve speaking and that there is no way to perceive the difference until one has done so.

~Aldin

[Fyron]

Comparing any real strategy game to filth like Warcraft is just plain silly... Warcraft is not a strategy game.

I see that you missed the post where I mentioned that this was from playing Dominions 1 demo, not Dominions 2...

It is entirely possible to see past a learning curve... that is what makes people try to get past it in the first place, because they see something worthwhile.

[aldin]

Do you mean to retract your complaint that the game is unpolished and has a poor interface? I didn't understand that from your post that you'd been playing the Dom 1 demo rather than that of Dom 2. If so, my post is moot. If not, my comments about WC3 are legitimate because they address the two issues you were complaining about, not because they served any comparison within the realm of "strategy games".

~Aldin

[Fyron]

I had edited it to mention Dominions 1 instead at the top quite some time before you made your post... My statements still stand about Dominions 1.

[ceremony]

Originally posted by aldin:
Warcraft III's 'polish' seems primarily to be in it's simplicity.

I don't think simplicity is the same as polish. Polish means getting the little things right, and in interface terms means anticipating what a player might want to do, and giving him a way to do it that's as straightforward and as easy to use as possible. I love Dom2 to death, but the game definitely isn't "polished." There are a ton of things that could be cleaned up. These things range from the completely inconsequential - like typos, and the text in some windows exceeding the window space - to the mildly annoying - like the lack of a mouse map scroll - to the truly aggravating - like the inability to scroll the army setup screen except by clicking on the scroll bar. Dom2's interface isn't as bad as some people say it is - I feel that, as you say, it lets you do most things you want to do - but it certainly could be much better, and isn't "polished" in any way. There are lots of places for improvement: the message screen, the army setup screen, the way information is presented about what is in an enemy province, etc. There should be a command to just cycle through (or reveal) your own scouts, since these are the commanders most often "lost" in a game since you can't see them on the main map if you don't have their province selected. Yes, you can cycle through all idle commanders using [N]ext idle commander, but I almost never want to do this - I just want to find my scouts. In the late stages of PBEM games, where I might not have seen my map for a few days, this is the first thing I forget, and want to be able to do. But I can't. Lack of polish.

A good example of polish in a fairly complex real-time strategy game is Rise of Nations. The designers there anticipated almost everything a player might want to do in a game, and gave him or her a simple way to do it (not in terms of strategy, but simply interface mechanics). In Dom2, you can also do most of what you want to do, but it's a much bigger pain.

I think Dom2 is the best strategy game I've ever played. However, I do understand when people complain about its lack of polish. I think that the game is so rewarding that this lack of polish is forgivable. I disagree with those who claim the game should cost less because the lack of polish doesn't justify a $50 price - I think that's crazy when you consider how many hundreds of hours of total enjoyment you'll probably get out of the game. But as to the simple claim that the game is unpolished, I have to agree.

[Pocus]

Fyron, tell us when you get into dom II demo. as a pillar of the Shrapnel forums, your opinion is rather interesting to hear.

It would be the first time (truely!) that I hear from a grognard strategy gamer that he dont appreciates dominions. Perhaps you will be such person, but I hope you will be as engrossed as us by the richness beyond belief of this game.

Happy playing.