Alexander's ever-expanding Tome of Knowledge

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
LIZARDS GONE WILD!

I've found Falchioneers to be also effective with that kind of berserk strategies, and they're cheaper, do more damage (7+7 vs 8+3), and have better prot and defense. On the minus side, Falchioneers are supposed to be ambidextrous, but their attack rating is only 8x2 with falchions.

[apoger]

>DEVILS O' RAMA

>>You're writing Diabolists and Goetic Masters off too easily. Give them flying boots and you can use exactly the same tactic with Marignon/Diabolical Faith, except you can add some cheap Harlequins to the mix too.


I am not a fan of the Goetic Masters.

Marignon [Diabolic Faith] requires Heat +1 and Turmoil +1, which is a mighty heavy economic hit.

The Goetic Masters require those Winged Shoes to fly, and that means they aren't nearly as available as a fast response to whatever you may need responding to.

Also the Goetic Masters can only command 10 Devils, while the Demonbred can command 35. This makes a huge difference.

If I was playing Marignon [Diabolic Faith] I would probably stick with using Hordes from Hell and skip on devils.

[apoger]

>LIZARDS GONE WILD!
>>I've found Falchioneers to be also effective

The Falchioneers are good troops, but I have found the Elite Warriors to be better even at the higher gold cost.

#1 The trident is a length 4 weapon, which will provide extra defense in the form of repels much more often than the length 2 falchion.

#2 They have a 12 morale as opposed to the flachioneers 10. That's a huge difference, particularly for C'tis, who has no other troops with good morale.

#3 The higher attack skill is absolutely critical. In practice I find that the Elite Warriors simply deal damage on a much more consistent basis.

#4 The lower resource cost means that I can generate more troops. When playing C'tis I often find that numbers are the key to victory, and the production limitations are often a tighter constraint than the gold costs.

#5 I have tried games using both troops, and while this is certainly nothing more than anecdotal evidence, I have found that the Elite Warriors appear to out perform the Falchioneers in practice.


On the other hand I'm open to input on potential ways that the falchioneers may be abused.

[ January 11, 2004, 17:49: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Windreaper]

Doh, what's the point of morale since your army is going berserk anywy. Besides, Mass Protection is most useful to guys with low natural prot and plenty of armor on top of that (heh, pan satyrs go up to prot 19 ). Actually neither of the two are really armor kings and have pretty good natural prot too, but you're forgetting the fact that berserking gives a nice boost to the falchioneers' attack skill. I'd thus go for two high strength attacks but as with most of the stuff in the game it's a matter of preference.

As for those army bLasting strategies. I usually try to have quick response fliers (harpies, spring hawks, even ordinary hawks will do) with my armies to counter teleporting mages. Defender gets the first turn so the attacking mages are swarmed right from the very first combat round. Even if they manage to survive the harpy/whatever attack the combat AI tends to make their personal survival a preference thus leading into spells like shock wave/melee attacks :/. In other words, I wouldn't be sending in anyone smaller than a golem using teleport/cloud trapeze as they don't allow for a bodyguard.

The poison strategy, however, is very effective. Pangaea, Man, Miasma C'tis and Serpent cult Pythium can all easily pull it off. Just research conj 3, const 2, alteration 1, ench 5 (or alternatively evocation 4/5 for the poison spells, I prefer enchantment since it takes you near Relief, too). Have a good screen of vine ogres and cast quickness, poison resistance, foul vapors, (cast spells/whatever) and enjoy. Actually, vine ogres are also fantastic at dealing with illithids and such if you include some cheap fodder for the illithids to bLast at. Otoh their mr of 5 gets them owned by all kinds of control spells so this is naturally not an endgame strategy.

Other than that, I agree with most of the stuff you say, especially concerning incinerate (if I go for evocation it's usually for spells like stream of life/nether darts for nations like jotunheim or anyone with access to lamia queens - cast eagle eyes and bLast away w/ nethers). Actually, alteration and enchantment are pretty high on my research list every time (Relief, Mass Protection, Mass Regeneration, Battle Fortune, Doom etc...)

[Teleolurian]

Hrm. I've been building falchioneers all this time because of the 2xFalchion and the lower cost. Thanks Alex, maybe I should reconsider my entire C'tis strategy.

Placing your poison units behind your undead is fun. Especially when you've got a Saurolich + Amulets of Vengeance + (other fun explodeys) up front. Thematically, I feel that the commander of the lizardmen should stand in front of his rapacious hordes, gesturing appropriately as they swarm past him. He's both immortal and boomy, so what can it hurt? Maybe I should get him some winged boots.

This thread is great! Keep it going!

[ January 11, 2004, 17:41: Message edited by: Teleolurian ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
I am not a fan of the Goetic Masters.

Marignon [Diabolic Faith] requires Heat +1 and Turmoil +1, which is a mighty heavy economic hit.

Oh so it's not really Gothic Masters you dislike, but the Diabolical Faith theme.

I fully agree with you on the econ concerns but it's completely besides the point. The theme exists and can be played and should be played. And if you don't use Goetic Masters when you play Diabolical Faith I'd say you're looking for trouble.

The Goetic Masters require those Winged Shoes to fly, and that means they aren't nearly as available as a fast response to whatever you may need responding to.

If by fast you mean 'reaction time', you just have to have a pair of boots ready, and the problem disappears. If you mean 'early in the game', even Abysia will have to struggle to summon 35 Devils before turn 20 so the limited undead leadership isn't really a concern. And Marignon can push for Construction 4 for the boots while summoning Harlequins (no Blood research needed). So the need for a Constr-4 item is far from enough to invalidate the Devil-o-Rama strategy for Marignon/DF. And it still can be used reasonably fast using Harlequins. 10 Harlequins won't achieve anything by themselves, but once you reach Blood 3 you have amassed a small force that can be added to your newly summoned Devils, while Abysia will have to spent 35 mage-turns after completing Blood 3.

Also the Goetic Masters can only command 10 Devils, while the Demonbred can command 35. This makes a huge difference.

Not in my book. When 10 Devils is enough, then 10 Devils is enough. When it's not, Goetic Masters that come with a random in Blood or Death can lead 15 or 30 Devils, and that should be enough. Other Goethic Masters can lead Devils and Wyverns if your air pretender was lucky finding sites. Or you can find Harab Seraphs or death independent mages to lead your Devils. The possibilities are numerous.

If I was playing Marignon [Diabolic Faith] I would probably stick with using Hordes from Hell and skip on devils.

Even if you notice an Harab Seraph province close to your capital? What's changed then? You've got the Devils (and Harlequins if you want your strike force faster), the flying death mage to lead them, and the cheap blood harvesters. If it works for Abysia, it has to work for Marignon.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
The Falchioneers are good troops, but I have found the Elite Warriors to be better even at the higher gold cost.

Agree, especially after Mass Protection - but when you're gold limited with resource aplenty, as is often the case even with all econ scales maxed, the cheaper cost of the Falchioneers or Swamp Guards comes handy.

#1 The trident is a length 4 weapon, which will provide extra defense in the form of repels much more often than the length 2 falchion.

In my tests the trident's length didn't prevent the EW to be hit as often as the Falchioneers, because of their worse defence. And anyway, I count on my Falchioneers being repelled to activate their berserk rage, I usually consider shorter weapons to be well suited to berserkers.

#2 They have a 12 morale as opposed to the flachioneers 10. That's a huge difference, particularly for C'tis, who has no other troops with good morale.

That's a huge difference _early_, that's why I count on EWs more. But I have yet to see a squad of Falchioneers under Touch of Madness or Growing Fury rout. And I always have berserk support for them, I stick to EWs if I can't get that support.

#3 The higher attack skill is absolutely critical. In practice I find that the Elite Warriors simply deal damage on a much more consistent basis.

The low attack rating is indeed my only real concern with Falchioneers. I agree in most cases EWs gets the edge when it comes to dealing damage. I've found Falchioneers to be superior vs Jotun spearmen, Minotaurs or Lava Warriors though - typically big targets with low def.

#4 The lower resource cost means that I can generate more troops. When playing C'tis I often find that numbers are the key to victory, and the production limitations are often a tighter constraint than the gold costs.

But you can really only amass numbers of EWs if you neglect recruiting mages, that's an efficient strategy but it has its drawbacks. If you want to recruit a Shaman or Sauromancer every turn or close, gold runs low fast. But OTOH you can use Falchioneers with Touch of Madness fairly early, and Falchioneers are better survivors than EWs. Using that approach works quite well after after an initial Javelin/EW rush.

#5 I have tried games using both troops, and while this is certainly nothing more than anecdotal evidence, I have found that the Elite Warriors appear to out perform the Falchioneers in practice.

Depends on what you're up against, or even the game settings. Against some targets, slightly smaller numbers of berserked Falchioneers will do the job as well as EWs, with less casualties. EWs work better vs high defense troops, with few or no missile support. At least that's my experience.

On the other hand I'm open to input on potential ways that the falchioneers may be abused.

Well, berserking them vs an army of shortbows is the only one I can think of. I like to use Einheres vs shortbows, and crazed Falchioneers aren't very different.