Dominions 2 Demo Review

[Saarud]

I agree with Imperator Fyron on most parts. Especially the combat situation where your archers kills your own unit. I would like to see some additional orders for archers "fire at closest enemy NOT in melee" and so on. That would really be great.

However I do think Fyron is to quick to judge the unit situation. I love the fact that there is so much different units to choose from. I think that if we would ask a group of veterans which units they use for a specific nation I bet we would see a spread out result among most units and perhaps one or two Favorites.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
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I assume level of the caster matters, like Fire9 mage should hit more with his fireball than a Fire2 mage right? Or does that just let him cast more fireballs in one battle?

That just affects the statistics that have "+" or "-" symbols after them in the spell description, as well as the penetration bonus to overcome magic resistance for those spells which can be negated by such.

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Extra magic skill also divides down the fatigue cost, making it possible to cast many more spells with less effect on the caster.

PvK

[SurvivalistMerc]

Saarud,

The problem with "fire at closest enemy not in melee" is that it would probably develop into a "fire at commanders" order.

I would actually be satisfied with an order to "fire at closest non-commander not dangerously close to a lot of my own troops but especially not in direct melee with them and under no circumstances fire into a melee that it looks like I will win without archer support. Just stand still and do nothing if you don't have a valid target."

[PvK]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
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Other than flying units, how do you overcome castle defenses?

Fliers are good. A few other ways:

* Lots of cannon fodder (e.g. militia, tribals, mercenaries, undead).

* Units which are resistant to the defenders' weapons.

* Spells which protect powerfully against missiles.

* Other effective battlefield spells.

* Assassinate the commanders.

* Kill the defenders with ritual spells.

* If the Last enemy stronghold, sweep away their dominion and banish their god, and the men will give up.

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Seems to me there is almost always a considered reason for the costs, even if it isn't obvious at first.

For some units, yes. But there are several Machaka and Jotunheim (the two nations I tried) units that increase in cost too drastically for what you get compared to the next weaker troop they have.

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I've only been addicted to this game for oh, half a year or so, and I haven't even gotten around to playing either Jotunheim or Machaka. (I've only played six of the seventeen nations, and only one variant flavor of one of those, so far, just to give you a hint of how much gameplay there is...).

However I think you're probably just not aware of the reasons behind the costs. For example, holy units have major advantages such as being blessable and only costing half as much to maintain (so their true cost is nearly half-off if they survive). Having fought Jotunheim a lot, I know that the little guys can complement the giants in a combined arms fashion, particularly because they can sneak in between the giants to increase the attack of a front, and also to distract attacks from the giants. Or, they can do a quick flank/rear attack, or block one.

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Maybe with low-morale units and fright-inducing effects (such as dead leaders, fighting monsters, etc), but that's intended. There are many spells, unit types, items, etc. which will very effectively reduce routing. I find the morale system extremely welcome and quite well-done. It would be a lot less interesting and less appropriate if everyone fought to the death regardless of circumstances. Terror and the ability to resist it is a major factor in war, especially when dragons and undead elephants are involved, etc...

But when you have no units with terror, they still route far too quickly...

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Maybe a matter of taste, or your particulars and inexperience. Having played a lot and watched all the battle replays, I think the morale system works really well.

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And yes, all the castle stats should be available on start-up. That's an omission, though the fans of course have posted a nice table.

PvK

[Teraswaerto]

Spells like fireball, etc. are a lot more accurate if you place your mages close to the front lines. Distance from target makes a big difference.

[tka]

>> But when you have no units with terror, they still route far too quickly...


Well sometimes morale system causes some odd results. I was fighting with Ermor (Ashen Empire) against Niefelheim. My province had about 150 ordinary longdeads, 3 mound kings and 1 arch bishop. Enemy had Son of Niefel and about 15 niefel giants. Those giants kept destroying my units until I had only 1 longdead, 1 mound king and the arch bishop left. Then those mighty giants decided to run away!
In that hilarious battle I managed to kill just one or two NGs long before enemy routed.

[PvK]

Don't overestimate the logic of fear.

PvK

[Fyron]

I don't think the demo was supposed to give you a complete game so this isn't really a fair criticism.

It gives me the ability to seige and storm a castle, so it most certainly is. I seiged it for 4 turns before the gates were broken, then failed several times over the next 10 turns to take out the meagre defenses of the castle with seemingly overwhelming forces before hitting the demo turn limit.

Again, I think having all your guys into one or two really big squads helps with this.

That is silly. It makes separating them into multiple squads to have greater tactical flexibility a bad idea.

Pretty good review, but you really need to read a LOT of forum Posts to learn the hidden info to make truly informed opinions about many features.

Basic info on how to play a game successfully should not be hidden. Advanced features, maybe, but not the basics.

Friendly fire usually does more damage than good in my experience, so I don't even waste the resources on building ranged units.

Which is a really poor game design decision, and one of the reasons I will not be purchasing Dominions 2 at this time.

Between Machaka hoplites and Spider warriors/knights? Or between hoplites and normal warriors? For the spiders, it's because that spider comes with a ranged web attack, is fast, has two normal attacks, one of which has death poison. Then when the rider gets killed the spider hangs around for the rest of the fight. For the black hunters you get a spider that is blessable and hangs around even riderless for many turns. Spider knights are also almost twice as fast as infantry, which lets them outflank their enemies.

It is much more a problem with Jotunheim than with Machaka. And no, I was certainly not comparing infantry with cavalry there. That would be silly.

Remember that a single point difference can have a very large effect with the rolls as seen on the charts in this thread.

I would not call the differences from 1 point listed on that thread very large effects, certainly not for the extreme increase in cost to get that point.

* Assassinate the commanders.

I tried that, actually... my assassin with Machaka just got slaughtered by a centaur commander. Do those regular troops that look like the assassin commander participate in the assassination battles?

Maybe a matter of taste, or your particulars and inexperience. Having played a lot and watched all the battle replays, I think the morale system works really well.

Probably a matter of taste. I find it absurd that so many units will just run like hell after taking small losses when they are defending their homeland. Units should only very rarely be routed when defending their homeland (such as with independants), and even then it should just be a few units routed, not the entire army.

However I think you're probably just not aware of the reasons behind the costs. For example, holy units have major advantages such as being blessable and only costing half as much to maintain (so their true cost is nearly half-off if they survive).

Yes, and I was not really considering holy units, especially for Jotunheim. I haven't tried other nations than them and Machaka, but then, I can't try most of them in the demo.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

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Again, I think having all your guys into one or two really big squads helps with this.

That is silly. It makes separating them into multiple squads to have greater tactical flexibility a bad idea.

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Multiple squads is very useful in the "outdoor" battles. But having one huge troop of foot soldiers under your best commander seems to work best for the castle assault. I do use multiple Groups during the assault, but only for flyers and mages.

Basic info on how to play a game successfully should not be hidden. Advanced features, maybe, but not the basics.

Agreed.

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Friendly fire usually does more damage than good in my experience, so I don't even waste the resources on building ranged units.

Which is a really poor game design decision, and one of the reasons I will not be purchasing Dominions 2 at this time.

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Despite flaws like this, the game is exceptionally intriguing and well worth the effort of playing. So don't use archers. (I don't.) It's not an insurmountable issue.

It is much more a problem with Jotunheim than with Machaka.

I disagree. I've been playing Jotunheim exclusively, both the demo for about 4 days, and the full game for another 4 days. I don't think it's such a big deal. I only use 1/3-1/2 of the full variety of Jotunheim units. But that's my play style. I think you're nit-picking rather than looking to see the myriad possibilities of what you can do with what's been given to you. Unlike many games that I could name, Dom 2 is excellent despite its flaws, flaws which in no way make the game unplayable or even unenjoyable.

I would not call the differences from 1 point listed on that thread very large effects, certainly not for the extreme increase in cost to get that point.

I hardly think it's "extreme".

I find it absurd that so many units will just run like hell after taking small losses when they are defending their homeland. Units should only very rarely be routed when defending their homeland (such as with independants), and even then it should just be a few units routed, not the entire army.

Agreed. Units at "home" should get a morale bonus. Tie the morale boost to a combination of dominion score and province ownership.


Cheers!

[PvK]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
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Again, I think having all your guys into one or two really big squads helps with this.

That is silly. It makes separating them into multiple squads to have greater tactical flexibility a bad idea.

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No it doesn't. It just provides you with choices that have trade-offs. Sometimes larger Groups make sense, sometimes smaller ones are good, usually an intelligently-deployed mix is best, etc.

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* Assassinate the commanders.

I tried that, actually... my assassin with Machaka just got slaughtered by a centaur commander. Do those regular troops that look like the assassin commander participate in the assassination battles?

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I'm not familiar with the details of Machakan assassins yet, but no I expect they attack alone. In some cases, naturally they will fail, particularly against tough targets. Assassins are usually pretty dangerous, and combat in Dominions is never a certain thing. It's not that assassins aren't a good idea (they can be very effective), but they aren't sure to work, as no one would want them to be. So, use more assassins, or different types of assassins, or give them equipment that will tip the scales, or be content with killing the weaker targets using assassins, or try any of the other techniques, or a combination.

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Maybe a matter of taste, or your particulars and inexperience. Having played a lot and watched all the battle replays, I think the morale system works really well.

Probably a matter of taste. I find it absurd that so many units will just run like hell after taking small losses when they are defending their homeland. Units should only very rarely be routed when defending their homeland (such as with independants), and even then it should just be a few units routed, not the entire army.

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Another thing which is a matter of taste, but which I really enjoy, is that few outcomes are certain in Dominions. There is a morale bonus for defending in home territory, and in friendly dominion, but they aren't a guarantee. Similarly, units can and do rout in small Groups sometimes - there are morale checks both for Groups and for armies.

For those interested in military history, morale was a major part of historical ancient/medieval combat, as well. Frequently, most of the killing in a battle was done after one side routed.

Furthermore, retreating can often be a good thing. If a small group routs, it is often beaten up, fatigued, and about to die, and having it withdraw to fight another day can be a very good thing. Same is often true for an army. Fighting to the death when overpowered is often a bad idea, and you need to start running before its decided, to have a reasonable chance of escape.

It's also more interesting to play a game where a reasonable number of the defeated side are able to continue to fight in later battles, instead of being wiped out in all-or-nothing battles. It makes wars much more strategically interesting than if it were like, say, SE4, where entire wars are frequently decided by single to-the-death-despite-the-odds bloodbaths. It's also a lot of fun to have both friendly and enemy characters and armies re-appear in multiple battles, even after being defeated.

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PvK