patch 2.06 out

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
Desert Tombs has problems? I didn't find that the case. Sure its not as good as C'tis base but not much is. I don't think themes have to be as strong as the base races as different races arn't as strong as each other. DT worked fine when I played it.
Keir

I prefer to have themes very close, if not on par, with the base race. Otherwise diversity will be lessened in multiplayer. You can do fine with a race which is weaker than an other, but its not a proof that nothing should be done.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
All the successful dual bless effect races I designed (two 9's) where order3/misfortune2-3 races. It was the only way I had found to get the points for the magic and keep enough gold to pay for expensive sacred troops. In my opinion this is not a realistic option anymore so its back to square one and the only one of my dual bless effect races that I'm fairly confident will still work ok is Jotun. Most people felt that two 9's was hopeless in the first place so my opinion is not a conservative one.

Caelum, Abyssia, and Machaka all have powerful holy troops and can take +3 temp. Abyssia is even semi-immune to Death. Water/Nature for Caelum, Fire/Earth for Abyssia, and Fire/Earth or Death/Nature for Machaka are doable without crippling scales. Astral/Fire is cheaper but less useful IMO. Caelum can take drain easily (cheap high-level mages and owl quills) and Machaka can too (Randoms for owl quills, and eventually skull mentors with 2 death).

I think dual-blessings are still possible, but you have to skrimp on the castle OR order OR productivity... so your capitol-only sacred should only be limited by gold OR resources, not both.

P.S. Ashen Ermor can go triple-9, a 4, and still have 9 dominion and massive research. That makes some hefty Knights of the Sepulchre...

P.P.S. I think I'll test them=)

[ January 14, 2004, 07:22: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Zen:
Kristoffer,

I think he main reason you don't hear much about Desert Tombs is it is still semi-decent because of the base strength of the entire Nation (C'tis).

With the new change of having fire instead of nature for the Desert Tombs Sauromancers who knows. I personally like Nature quite a bit for them, but this way they are assured to be able to cast Banefire (which is nice but high on the research chain). Though you still do have Shamans.

Yeah, I think DT could have nicer magical versatility now. Doesn't it also give them Skeleton Archers, and with the right booster items, King of Banefires? And they still have Shaman for vinemen summoning.

Plus they have a use for their fire gem income, which is always nice. And fire magic always goes well with a heat scale (sauromancers have decent PREC too). A sauromancer with his random in astral or blood can lead a shaman communion too.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Caelum, Abyssia, and Machaka all have powerful holy troops and can take +3 temp. Abyssia is even semi-immune to Death. Water/Nature for Caelum, Fire/Earth for Abyssia, and Fire/Earth or Death/Nature for Machaka are doable without crippling scales. Astral/Fire is cheaper but less useful IMO. Caelum can take drain easily (cheap high-level mages and owl quills) and Machaka can too (Randoms for owl quills, and eventually skull mentors with 2 death).

Go for it Saber - I think you are mostly wrong but I'm certainly keen to see other peoples experiance. I have tried all the things you mention except Ermor, which I don't really play, and my opinion is based on having tried these options and many, many, more. Sure you can come up with a race - but is it a decent one?

I would warn you that there are major problems involved in treating nations such as Abysia as Bless Effects nations. 1 strat move troops who can only be built in their capital make a really frustrating basis for a race as the game progresses. With Abysia its the mages you have to work on and they are so sap with their fire magic that it doesn't really seem worth it in my tests with dual bless effects but one earth9 is a goer.

In the end there is only one way to get an answer to the impact of the patch on dual bless effects races and thats to play them. I have played them extensively pre patch and IMO this catagory of races has been butchered to such a degree that we only speak of it because it was once viable. Sure you will get 1or2 two 9 races but I don't think it will be enough to talk of a Category of race designs. In truth dual bless effects races were borderline pre the patch with only the best looking like they have what it takes for MP.

I'm not really annoyed about what I've lost. Johan O. made it fairly clear awhile back that he didn't see any problem with returning to the old scales and its impact on dual bless effect designs would be minimal. While I think he was wrong in his assessment at least I knew what was coming. I didn't enjoy giving up on my main area of race design but I can cope.

Ciao

Keir
[I edited the post as it was too grumpy, I guess I'm missing my toys - Keir]

[ January 15, 2004, 00:50: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]