Two new MODs from me

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by apoger:
[QB] >Now you've effectively told Pangaea that they shouldn't bother using their standard theme

Last time I'm telling you, play before speaking.

In fact Pangaea will do *much better* under my mod than the standard because of the improved luck. I did playtest.

Last time I checked, luck +3 didn't provide Pangaea with any more benefits than it did to any other nation. Turmoil 3 does however, and you've changed it to no longer have an effect on the nuber of events. You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

That's a Dom1 recommendation. I haven't advocated the Wyrm for players anytime recently.

At least criticize me on a current topic.

Your scales make the game much more like Dom1, so it certainly still applies. If you can think of a better choice for, say, Man than some kind of Wyrm with less than 4 magic under your scales then I'd like to hear about it.

JTblitz was on a freaky small map where flyers could go from capital to capital. You have to consider the scenario. It was hardly representative of most Dominions play.

If the economic resources available to players from the reports are any indication, then Dom2 is an awful lot better in that department. The armies listed are far too large.

[QUOTETaken directly from the readme:

"Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want."

You're reading more into things than are there. Chill, and enjoy the game.[/quote]

If you claim that something is better a certain way, then you should be willing to back up that claim. Since you seem to think that these scales are better, then you should also be made aware of what the other consequences are (overinflated economies, weak pretenders, level 9 bless effects being less powerful than economy, etc.)

[Zapmeister]

Right now I'm working on mods to improve light cavalry (which I think are deficient) and up the precision on mages. Is there any interest out there for such things? Let me know.

Absolutely. Although I've disagreed with Alex on matters around diplomacy for a long time now, there's no question in my mind that he has a better handle on balance issues than the devs. Make those mods, Alex.

[apoger]

>You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

No I was comparing Pangaea under standard scales and Panagea under my mod.

The common Panagea strategy is to attempt Turmoil-3 Luck-3 for the extra luck events. Right now it's near unplayable due to the way luck is handled.

Even though my turmoil offers no extra events, I'm telling straight up that my mods Pangaea will be much better off due to the differnce in how I do luck scale.

Hence your complaint that "Now you've effectively told Pangaea that they shouldn't bother using their standard theme" is a load of crap. In fact they are better off under my mod.


>You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

If you insist on comparing to other nations, then Pangaea can take Order, Luck, or other scales just as easily as anyone else. This has no bearing on anything.


Honestly Graeme, I'm weary of this childish nonsense. For the final time I will quote:

"Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want."


And that's all I have to say to you.

[ January 15, 2004, 03:26: Message edited by: apoger ]

I wouldn't want you to go hog wild with the precision, though certainly a few *minor* tweaks here and there. You also don't want to lessen the fact of Nature (eagle eyes) or Air (Aim) low end spells so they are no longer as impacting as they are now.

Edit: You should also stop fighting about the Mod that hasn't even been released. I have reservations yes. I have things I'm going to be looking at when I test it. (The least of which is pick these 'themes' that the balance wasn't keeping in mind) But I can't say anything now other than conjecture. I hope Alex has been able to use Luck to Balance out his hypothetically overwhelming Order (or in this case Turmoil) but I have to be in game to see.

[ January 15, 2004, 03:37: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by apoger:
[QB] >You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

No I was comparing Pangaea under standard scales and Panagea under my mod.

You still haven't fixed the problem though, as order 3 is still more useful to them than turmoil 3.

The common Panagea strategy is to attempt Turmoil-3 Luck-3 for the extra luck events. Right now it's near unplayable due to the way luck is handled.

I'll reiterate that luck 3 is not supposed to be a standard part of Pangaea, turmoil 3 is.

Even though my turmoil offers no extra events, I'm telling straight up that my mods Pangaea will be much better off due to the differnce in how I do luck scale.

That's of course if Pangaea takes a luck scale. They gain no special benefit from doing so compared to other nations, so why should they bother?

Hence your complaint that "Now you've effectively told Pangaea that they shouldn't bother using their standard theme" is a load of crap. In fact they are better off under my mod.

If luck is able to overcome a 45% relative reduction in income to order 0, then you've almost certainly made luck too powerful. It doesn't depend on the quality of the rest of your economy, just the number of provinces you own, so it will likely be better than order 3.

>You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

If you insist on comparing to other nations, then Pangaea can take Order, Luck, or other scales just as easily as anyone else. This has no bearing on anything.

Right, Pangaea can take order and lose a good part of their Maenad production. The point is that Pangaea is "supposed" to take turmoil,

Honestly Graeme, I'm weary of this childish nonsense. For the final time I will quote:

"Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want."

And that's all I have to say to you.

Ahh yes, the old. "You don't have to play it if you don't want to." copout that's used whenever someone points out that your "balance" isn't really balanced, except to your particular style of play. The problem is that you refuse to accept that spending points on a pretender should be every bit as valuable as spending them on dominion scales. I'd like to see your rationale for how spending 275 points to get a green dragon to level 9 nature is going to be as effective as spending those points on order and prod 3. Remember that for it to be close the berserk, regeneration and nature spells must overcome a deficit of roughly 80 gold and 70 resources per turn from the capital province alone.

[Jasper]

Wow. This mod is so bad it isn't even worth trying out. All it does is punish those who take negative scales, and reward those who take positive scales. Clearly the best choice is to put all points into scales -- far more so even than in Dom 1. 120 pts for +45% income? 120 pts for ludicrous population growth? Would anyone ever take less?

Alex, I know you like the idea of powerfull scales, and prefer low or even no magic pretenders, but do you honestly think this leads to any balance or variety?

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

"Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want."

And that's all I have to say to you.

Ahh yes, the old. "You don't have to play it if you don't want to." copout that's used whenever someone points out that your "balance" isn't really balanced, except to your particular style of play.

---

Well it is a mod Graeme. I really think that given what you have said you don't want to play the game the way Alex does - ie more like Dom1. Sure the balence is way in favour of dom scales and thus against powerful pretenders. If Alex wants to play that way and thinks others out their might feel the same then whats wrong with that?

Your view of what is a good game is too different from Alex's to make this discussion useful and it seems to be degenerating into flames. I have found it hard to discuss dom constructively with Alex since Dom2 came out as our opinion of the changes is so different. That being the case I'm happy to see Alex have the possibility of approaching the game the way he wants even if its not my cup of tea. No point in him keeping on being annoyed at the game having changed in ways he really doesn't like. As I'm lucky enough to like the changes it seems only fair to show some understanding to the perspective of someone who loved Dom1 (and contributed heaps to its growth) who hasn't got what they want out of dom2.

Having just lost a large chunk of my dom2 race designs to the patch and having been shown little or no sympathy I can understand how irritating it is to have your favourite toys taken away. It pays not rub the salt in - certainly makes me grumpy.

Alex has a valid point regarding the need to play the mod to understand it. I have got annoyed at people who don't seem to have played dual bless effects races telling me dual bless effect races haven't been changed by the patch - so I can appreciate Alex's perspective on this.

I think you should let this one go Graeme as the discussion has become too grumpy to be reasoned or reasonable.

Its time for the good old:

Don't worry, be happy.

Keir