Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?

[Windreaper]

Magma Eruption is my favourite with Machaka, too. Blindness is another spell you should learn to rely on, too (no better way to stop hordes of rampaging Niefel giants).

As for units I wouldn't rely on Black Hunters too much. They're too costly for what they do. Ok, they're nice with nature 9 but the spiders' mr5 let them down later in the game. Hoplites with some cheap shortbow archers and maybe some spider knights (I actually find these guys quite good for the cost, web spit is rather nice) make up the majority of my armies.

Alex's strategy of using black sorcerers with invulnerability and fire shield as mini-supercombatants seems rather nice, too. Got to try that one out. In any case, alteration should be your field of research in the early game (gets you those nice protection spells, especially mass protection (!), and probably the best fire combat spell - incineration). Getting construction to high levels early is a good idea, too (actually, I'd consider rushing for const 4 right away). Your mages should be mostly researching for the first 10-20 turns anyway so I'd invest in evocation later.

Example research path:
Construction 4 (critical items)
Alteration 6 (Mass protection)
Enchantment 6 (Relief) or Conjuration 6 (Trolls, Lamias) or Evocation 6 (Magma Eruption)

This is of course a general guideline but that's what I'd go for with Machaka. Depends on the situation, of course.

As for pretender. Since Machaka is so versatile magically it's hard to decide on a good design. Some sort of support mage would probably fit the bill quite nicely. A Prince of Death would be a rather cheap option and would compliment your existing magic quite well (your guys got 1 magic pick and can get more through randoms but you really want to have 4 levels for early sitesearching) and would also allow you to have decent scales. I'd probably go magic 3 and do some heavy research with the witch doctors.

Example pretender:

Prince of Death:

Magic: 4 Death

Scales:

Order: +3
Productivity: +3 (you'll want the resources for the hoplites)
Heat: +2 (preferred)
Growth: +0/+1
Luck: +0/+1 (either this or Growth or additionally 2 extra levels of death magic)
Magic: +3 (you got 90gp research 5 guy but since you're going to buy many witch doctors anyway why not boost your research by nearly 50%).

40admin castle (80pts).

0 points left over

[ January 22, 2004, 07:04: Message edited by: Windreaper ]

Windreaper's suggestions are all good. Though in my personal experience, picking up a middleweight air pretender is more to my playstyle. It allows you a little more versatility with easy access to flying units and site searching. Of course you can still use your PoD as a Province grabber early on, which is also very nice. Definitely look at heavy order and production scales and magic are all very nice.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Zen:
Definitely look at heavy order and production scales and magic are all very nice.

I agree on order and production, but magic 0/+1 is good enough for me, as buying more gives diminishing returns:

scale - RP cost - delta (assuming Witch Doctor)
-3 ...... 45 ......
-2 ...... 30 ...... (-15)
-1 ...... 22.5 .... (-7.5)
+0 ...... 18 ...... (-4.5)
+1 ...... 15 ...... (-3)
+2 ...... 12.85 ... (-2.25)
+3 ...... 11.25 ... (-1.6)
++ ...... 10 ...... (-1.25)

It's even slightly worse when you factor in experience (shift the costs a row down to get the RP cost for a 1-star WD).

[onomastikon]

Hey thanks for all of these tips.

Before I read Windreaper's post (and the later ones), I went ahead and tried a new game, with ok success up till now.

Obviously I do not grasp the importance of the scales yet, but perhaps later.

I went with a Ghost King, and made a good searcher (4 death, 4 earth, 4 nature, 4 fire, 2 water), 2 heat scales and 1 magic. I went with the 2 water perhaps for a stupid Idea, will see how it turns out: there is a Very Powerful Item, I think it is called the Water bracelet, which only costs 5 gems and req. 1 water skill, gives +1 water. With one of these on my pretender or two on a Black Sorc with a Skull of Fire (if he has random water), they can forge a Staff of the Elements (+1 all elements), which I can give to a witchdoctor to let him forge the Flame Helmet. Then my casters can stop researching and join a battle, if my nation survives that long.
I am going for high construction and alteration, middle conjuration and evokation.
Also, water works ok with some alteration and early evocation spells I think.

Well, I am sure it will be much different than I plan (so far havent found any water sites!), and I will try a new game perhaps with some of Windreaper's suggestions. But maybe I would try a Greath Mother instead of PoD. Also, I just sort of *like* the spiders. Maybe they are not so great, I just sort of like the big hunters. And they get nice bless effects with my 4 4s.

Well thanks for listening anyway.

[Jasper]

The best bless effect I've found for the Hunter Spiders is Earth 9. This gives them protection 26, and means the never tire.

[Humer]

One huge thing, which hasn't cropped up yet: Machaka can make use of Fever Fetishes off the box! Best path to fire gemmity goodness:
- Black Sorceror forges Earth boots (skip, if random was Earth)
- Black Sorceror forges Dwarven hammer
- Someone summons an undead commander, since they don't give a rats @$$ about diseases.
- Witch Doctor w/ D-Hammer hammers away Fever Fetishes a-plenty (req. Fire-1, Nature-1).
- Fever Fetish goes to an undead commander. Black Servants work best (stealth).
- Remember to harvest (F7->pool(fire gems))

Cost to start this is quite a bit (in gems) but I find it *very* worthwhile, especially after recruiting indy-alchemist and forging the Alchemists' Stone

Dwarven hammer should be used. Really.

- Humer

[Windreaper]

Humer: that sort of goes without saying but is a good point anyway. I admit that I turn quite a hefty amount of the fire gems to cash, too but most of the time I just go to town with Flames/Fires from the sky or build some phoenix rods instead (incinerate = best fire combat spell). Those work especially well against all kinds of big monsies, mass protected ulm troops etc. Also, tested a 4-air Virtue design today and would heartily recommend it for Machaka, too. You actually get the same scales as w/ PoD.

As for Hunter Spiders, I'm still not a big fan of them. Just too easy to take out with magic to be worth the investment. Actually, I find that the mages are Machaka's real strength. I mostly build Hoplites (damn these troops are cool) with some shortbows thrown in with 'fire at archers' to take out longbows/crossbows. Later in the game just mass protect your hoplites for prot 23, have plenty of black sorcerers casting magma eruption and use relief to make their fatigue go away.