Limitanei MOD, of interest ... or not.

[HJ]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
I think there needs to be a cap on province defense if the quality of the troops involved is improved, otherwise you could sink your money into a upkeep-free iron wall around your territories, which replenishes if you leave so much as one man of it alive. This could make for more static games.

That's exactly why I voted yes. This would be great for us SPers who like to develop into late game without worrying about being crushed from all sides. It would make it harder to conquer AIs too, as the AI seems to be good at organizing PD. I don't know how would AI vs. AI conquests go then though. Now, if we could only make the AIs build more castles as well...

[PvK]

Originally posted by PDF:
Methinks that overall defense should be somewhat higher, so that there'd be *some* rationale to have defense > 25.
Maybe giving "strong" unit for defense > 20 would mostly do the trick - but ain't possible currently !
...

Are you just playing Arco and Pythium? Maybe they're both supposed to have weak defense, because they are strong in other areas. Pythium has been described as so strong it has no weaknesses, so even if you increase its defense just a little, it may unbalance some things because defense never goes against other defense - it goes against attacks, such as from spells as well as armies.

So you're mainly worried that defense over 25 isn't strong enough, rather than the lower levels (which I've found useful on the non-Ermor nations I've tried: Ulm, Arco, Mictlan, Vanheim, and I've fought Jotun defense )? If so, I've only ever had the cash to try such high levels as Ulm and Vanheim. With Vanheim, it was worth it because I was defending my capitol, and combined with patrolling armies, I was able to bleed the attacking enemies dry and recover to a position of strength. Defense does go up in value as it gets higher because it regenerates each attack if the battle is won. That can add up to a massive equivalent payback compared to buying, maintaining, feeding, and losing actual units, and the more you have, the more likely they are to win.

Sounds like you are playing larger/later games, though, and apparently your play style has seen many situations where you'd've liked to have more useful high defenses. So, once it's moddable, no doubt you'll enjoy the results. Sounds interesting, if perhaps not a needed change for the unmodded game.

PvK

[PDF]

PvK
You give me more experience/ideas than I actually have !
I was rather explaining than IMHO it's quite pointless to put 25+ gp in a quite subpar unit with many nations, even if upkeep free ... because it's also immobile and impossible to command.

It may have some use in SP games to strengthen some defense, but in MP it looks stupid.

So I've no experience with trying 30+ defense... and my fellow and more experienced gamers (such as Pocus) think the same way. I prefer to use the 500 gold it take from def 20 to 30 to buy real units !

In the same spirit I think that the basic defense unit should be at least good enough to warrant its cost, even if low. Cardaces and Velites don't (Velites having at least javelins...). Arco is additionally plagued by having Lt Cav as 2nd type of defense troops, bwaaaaa !

[PvK]

Ok. Again, I think a mod to increase such would be interesting and worthwhile, especially if you and others would like it to be that way. Which is me not saying much, since that's what modding is for.

As for the unmodded game, I think it's ok and by design, considering the following points.

* Level 25-30 is supposed to be generally a large commitment to defense, and not the usual thing to spend money on, except in special cases.

* It can be worth it if it is an important province which needs a tough defense, not because the defense can necessarily fight off a really tough attack by itself, but because it can make a tough defending army much tougher because it uses no food, can lose all its men and regenerate for the next attack, etc. When successfully defending combined with real units with complementary orders, suddenly the defense investment can really pay off.

* Arco and especially Pythium are considered some of the strongest nations, so it's good they have some weakness. I don't have a lot of sympathy for them not being able to have great maintenance-and-food-free regenerating defenses as well.

* For Ulm on the other hand, going from 25-29 takes you from 5 HI that will run out in front of the 19 arbalests, to 9 HI, which is much more likely to stop an attacking army, or hold them off long enough for another 19-38 arbalest shots to launch.

* Once it starts getting expensive to add defense, you can add a few real units to defend, who can patrol, and can have special orders that take into account the large free regenerating defense in the center.

* Defense can also be raised in any friendly province without any construction time.

* Defense never fights enemy defenses - it fights attacking armies and spells - so balance should be considered in that light, as well. For example, attack/summon spells like Hordes From Hell can overrun a certain level of defense; so if you increase defense, you're also reducing the usefulness of spells of that type.

Those are reasons I think the settings seem to be good in the unmodded game. I'd still try out and probably enjoy your mod, though I recommend keeping Arco and Pythium defense weaker than that of weaker nations, unless you weaken them in other ways, since they're already considered to be so strong (especially Pythium - ouch!).

PvK