Limitanei MOD, of interest ... or not.

[Pocus]

The idea of this mod would be to strengthen the value of provincial defence, for all races, so that they can have a real military value on higher levels (which are rarely bought as of now).

For example a 25 strength provincial defence for Pythium would be 25 velites and 15 legionaries (1 velite for each point, then 3 legionaries for each point, starting at 21).

A 50 points defence (cost ~ 1250 GP) would be 50 velites and 90 legionnaries.

[PhilD]

Originally posted by Pocus:
The idea of this mod would be to strengthen the value of provincial defence, for all races, so that they can have a real military value on higher levels (which are rarely bought as of now).

I'm not sure what to vote here, I'm missing a "increase it for some races, not for others".

With their current values, province defenses vary widely in worth. Maybe this is a design decision, but THAT is what makes it so that some nations have little interest in using it.

[Pocus]

ah yes, I could have added this choice yes, if I thought of it that is

The idea would be to render all defences of interest, but balanced between races. I dont quite understand why some races should have useless provincial defences, it is a critical feature which hamper greatly nations unable to use them efficiently. Perhaps its a design decision yes.

[PvK]

Yeah, some nations have better defense than others, and for some it is pretty good, for others not so good, and for all, better combined with real units.

I wouldn't say increasing it is really necessary, but it could be an interesting variant. Just keep the relative existing balance between nations in mind, and don't try to make all nations' defenses the exact same value as each other, since no doubt the unmodded defenses were chosen with care.

PvK

[Teraswaerto]

One of Pythium's few weaknesses is the feeble provincial defense. I'd say this is by design, and a across the board boosting of provincial defense quality would be bad for game balance.

I guess if the relative differences in quality between nations were kept in, it could work without messing with game balance.

[ January 24, 2004, 08:15: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[PDF]

Methinks that overall defense should be somewhat higher, so that there'd be *some* rationale to have defense > 25.
Maybe giving "strong" unit for defense > 20 would mostly do the trick - but ain't possible currently !
Balance is an issue : nations shouldn't be "equal" in defense, as they have different strength. Some are Ok (Ulm), but some soo crappy that they need a boost (Arco- but my upcoming mod will take care of this too ! )
However another problem is that defence can't have orders, so can't be trusted ...

[st.patrik]

I think there needs to be a cap on province defense if the quality of the troops involved is improved, otherwise you could sink your money into a upkeep-free iron wall around your territories, which replenishes if you leave so much as one man of it alive. This could make for more static games.

Having said that, I woud love to see decent troops being used for province defence (though obviously not elites). Ex. Pangaea: satyr hoplites backed up with centaur longbows, or Man: longbows with axemen, etc. think Ulm is pretty good as it is.

I don't know if any of you guys remember the thread, but I proposed boosting province defence some time ago based on what structures are in the province, i.e. castle=(better) national troops, lab=mage(s), temple = priest(s)

But I definitely think you need a limit

[Saber Cherry]

Suggestion for Jotunheim:

2 Vaettir and .5 Jotun militia for each point up to 20. Why? Jotun militia rout too easily. This would give them a larger morale pool.

As for Pythium... 3 legionaires per point??? Hmm. Craziness=) Velites are fine for the initial units, but Pythium is already strong, in case you have not noticed... maybe 1 legionaire and 1 gladiator per point would be interesting.

[HJ]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
I think there needs to be a cap on province defense if the quality of the troops involved is improved, otherwise you could sink your money into a upkeep-free iron wall around your territories, which replenishes if you leave so much as one man of it alive. This could make for more static games.

That's exactly why I voted yes. This would be great for us SPers who like to develop into late game without worrying about being crushed from all sides. It would make it harder to conquer AIs too, as the AI seems to be good at organizing PD. I don't know how would AI vs. AI conquests go then though. Now, if we could only make the AIs build more castles as well...

[PvK]

Originally posted by PDF:
Methinks that overall defense should be somewhat higher, so that there'd be *some* rationale to have defense > 25.
Maybe giving "strong" unit for defense > 20 would mostly do the trick - but ain't possible currently !
...

Are you just playing Arco and Pythium? Maybe they're both supposed to have weak defense, because they are strong in other areas. Pythium has been described as so strong it has no weaknesses, so even if you increase its defense just a little, it may unbalance some things because defense never goes against other defense - it goes against attacks, such as from spells as well as armies.

So you're mainly worried that defense over 25 isn't strong enough, rather than the lower levels (which I've found useful on the non-Ermor nations I've tried: Ulm, Arco, Mictlan, Vanheim, and I've fought Jotun defense )? If so, I've only ever had the cash to try such high levels as Ulm and Vanheim. With Vanheim, it was worth it because I was defending my capitol, and combined with patrolling armies, I was able to bleed the attacking enemies dry and recover to a position of strength. Defense does go up in value as it gets higher because it regenerates each attack if the battle is won. That can add up to a massive equivalent payback compared to buying, maintaining, feeding, and losing actual units, and the more you have, the more likely they are to win.

Sounds like you are playing larger/later games, though, and apparently your play style has seen many situations where you'd've liked to have more useful high defenses. So, once it's moddable, no doubt you'll enjoy the results. Sounds interesting, if perhaps not a needed change for the unmodded game.

PvK