Why does Desert Tombs suck?

[mivayan]

Started a quick game:
Ctis, desert tomb,
Phoenix, fire9, air1, dom5
order1, sloth3, heat2, death2, luck0, magic3
Mausoleum

Or order 2/death3 maybe.

The phoenix can capture provinces from turn 2 onwards with fire dart. Sloth might not be a huge problem if you use sauromancers with raise dead to expand when you have it available. The tomb wyrms with fire blessing can kill stuff and have nice mr, but can die fairly quickly unless you have lots of fodder troops.

I got the king hero on turn 2 or so... as prophet hs has unholy6 and summons 3 tomb wyrms each turn. Perhaps not a good idea though, since you need him to fight or cast royal power.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Death scale is not the same thing as killer dominion.

Death scale kills population VERY SLOWLY, reduces supply and reduces income slightly. In practice the supply reduction is the most important effect, IMO. (The income isn't totally negligible, but it's easily worth 40 points if you don't need the supplies.)

Didn't seem so very slowly to me. They died rather alarmingly fast in my book. By turn 40 or so, the place was a total wasteland.

This is a serious weakness for Carrion Woods which has capitol-only troops (is there any way to use them after turn 20 besides wishing for population?), but Ashen Empire and Soul Gates don't really mind.

I'd say a more serious weakness in CW is the total creation point loss: You're essentially losing about 160 creation points just by taking it: Carrion Woods is functionally equivalent to Death 3+, yet you have to take Growth, a scale which is completely negated and then some by the theme dominion. While the weaknesses of other themes can be attributed to scale issues, being forced into taking Growth for a Death theme is a killer right there. The theme had better be DAMN impressive to justify this....and it's not.

While the death scale of DT definitely kills somewhat more slowly than, say, Ashen Empire, that just means you suffer the negatives of having no population, without the positives of having no population: With COMPLETELY no population, your land is worthless and generally undesirable: It has a fairly good "what's mine is mine" feel to it. And you don't have to deal with their constant whining. With just regular death, they STILL die fairly quickly, but in the meantime, you're stuck dealing with their snivelling while gaining none of the benefits for a mass slaughter.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Didn't seem so very slowly to me. They died rather alarmingly fast in my book. By turn 40 or so, the place was a total wasteland.

Death 1 is a 0.2% population loss per turn. Over 40 turns in your capital, this would bring your population down to 27K people.

While the death scale of DT definitely kills somewhat more slowly than, say, Ashen Empire,that just means you suffer the negatives of having no population, without the positives of having no population:

The rates are nowhere near being comparable. Ashen empire kills thousands of people per turn. Death 1 kills a thousand if your initial population happens to be 500,000 people. With a population of 30K, you will lose 60 people per turn.

Killing all the population in a province is a bad thing. It means that ashen empire is at war with everyone from the get go.

With just regular death, they STILL die fairly quickly, but in the meantime, you're stuck dealing with their snivelling while gaining none of the benefits for a mass slaughter.

Ashen empire has no unbanishable troops without summoning them. Desert Tombs does not have this weakness.

[diamondspider]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
If they have the poison slingers, they'd combine very well with undead against non-resistant enemies.

PvK

Yes, but normal C'tis can do that just as well (in fact, with their poison resistance, it works even with non-[undead/vinemen/manikin] troops - you may take some damage, but not too much). The only real advantages of DT are unholy priests (reanimate) and tomb wyrms.

....

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I've been doing a LOT of practicing with the poison slingers using Miasma lately and have found that the slingers are too dangerous for me to use with living troops (at least en masse). The slingers are super powerful but a few good friendly fire hits can rout one of your own units very easily.

The thing about poison resistance is that unless it is 100 and therefore does zero damage, it still counts as a "hit" on ALL of the poisoned troops and that can add up to a lot of morale checks very quickly.

I've been using hordes of these slingers with totally immune troops (Longdead Horsemen, other Undead, and Claymen) with great success though. (at least early on when relying on capital only troops still works).

So, I agree that this is a BIG advantage in Desert Tombs since it is nearly impossible to get enough immune troops to make these awesome units safe otherwise.

[ January 29, 2004, 11:43: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Killing all the population in a province is a bad thing. It means that ashen empire is at war with everyone from the get go.

Are you referring to the AI, or MP diplomacy? The AI hates everyone, as far as I can tell. Since your ultimate objective is the burnination of everything and everyone, whether the AI feels like talking to you or not is really somewhat moot, as Ashen Empire helpfully allows the use of the Russian Defense:
1. Withdraw to the capitol.
2. Wait for winter.

By the time the AI's troops have starved to half to death, they're easy pickings. Since I have no unrest to deal with, nor income to really lose, the territory is easily retaken, possibly with the AI being so generous as to even build me some improvements on rare occasions.

In MP, the fact that your domain is generally unpleasant doesn't preclude easily coming to a diplomatic arrangement with some of your more distant neighbors who will not be exposed to it. The level of magic power you can afford makes early site-searching a snap, which gives you a sizeable head start on gem income. The people I've played with so far don't seem to be terribly concerned that I've burninated my countryside, seeing as it's not theirs. The diplomatic game is every bit more fun when you're playing the sides off against each other while sitting on the sidelines. Nobody wants to commit the resources needed for a push into the hellhole that is the Ashen Empire, knowing that I might induce one of his other neighbors to backstab him while he's occupied.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Nobody wants to commit the resources needed for a push into the hellhole that is the Ashen Empire, knowing that I might induce one of his other neighbors to backstab him while he's occupied.

I can't imagine that anyone other than Carrion Woods Pangaea would ever even really think of allying with the Ashen empire, no matter how nice a present they gave them. Their dominion is so hostile to everyone else, and their growth is exponential, so I really can't see them surviving unless people are in a prearranged team game.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
Nobody wants to commit the resources needed for a push into the hellhole that is the Ashen Empire, knowing that I might induce one of his other neighbors to backstab him while he's occupied.

I can't imagine that anyone other than Carrion Woods Pangaea would ever even really think of allying with the Ashen empire, no matter how nice a present they gave them. Their dominion is so hostile to everyone else, and their growth is exponential, so I really can't see them surviving unless people are in a prearranged team game.

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Well, obviously it would have to be a game that allowed allied victory. Otherwise, the longer AE survives, the more dangerous it is to everyone including its present allies.

But if endgame alliances are allowed, the longer AE survives, the more dangerous it is to its enemies. As long as you don't border AE (their allies will typically not be chosen from among their neighbors), or make the border in low-value provinces, or keep priests and temples to keep back AE's dominion, you can coexist with them just fine.