Burden of Time

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by Master Shake:
My favorite route for dispelling Burden of Time (or anything else) is to use the Coytl. An Earth 1 Astral 1 mage can summon one. The Cotyl has Earth 3, Astral 3, and can dispel. It is a way to save a lot of gems if you have some earth gem income.

Pst! Nature, not Earth. Couatl is also a holy-3 priest.

[Sleepy]

Originally posted by Master Shake:
Even worse, BoT seems to kill off the population in your provinces.

It probably does, since my income has been taking a nosedive ever since BoT was cast. That's partly due to the increases unrest as well. The lack of income is nearly as annoying as having a mage go mute or feebleminded every few turns. Since most of my troops are now walking wounded AND complaining about back pay, I've decided to go with the flow and convert to a dead army. Since I can't get rid of BoT anymore I may as well use it to help me against the Last two nations.

cheers...

[Daynarr]

This is only for SINGLE PLAYER games. MP is different.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
If I'm a non-astral nation in a game containing Ermor, I can think of 3 ways of responding to the threat of Burden of Time:

1. Kill Ermor before it happens;
2. Resign immediately;
3. Die painfully after it happens.

Any others?

1. Good solution
2. That’s an option but I would hardly call it a solution
3. Same as 2

4. Wait for an astral nation to dispel it.
5. Use undead units yourself until it gets dispelled.
6. Cast other global enchantments to push it out.
7. Kill Ermor after it happens.
8. Kill the mage that cast the Burden of Time.
9. Empower a mage to be able to dispel it.
10. Help an astral nation to dispel it by giving them astral pearls.
11. Use cheap units for the meantime instead of any expensive ones you might have.
12. Use independent mages that have astral skill to dispel it.
13. Design your pretender with astral magic.

4. In SP you might as well use 2 or 3. It’s extremely rare occurrence that AI dispels GE. It usually overwrites it with BoT of it’s own and that won’t help you.

5. That’s doable only for other nations with undead themes (C'tis and Panganea and C'tis is astral nation). Other nations won’t have time or gem to use that option as winning strategy. However, it CAN be used to reduce casualties and strengthen your armies while BoT is active.

6. BoT is level 5 enhancement. If there is a nation who can cast it (has mage/pretender and has enough death gem income) it will probably be a first or one of the first GE that has been cast. This spell is, basically, cast very early in game or not at all. So this suggestion means that I have to cast 3-4 other GE in order to fill 5 GE limit and then cast some other HOPING that I will manage to dispel some existing enchantment and HOPING that BoT is the one being dispelled. That is not mentioning the gem cost and research needed to do that.

7. If you didn't do it by then you most certainly won't kill it while your troops commanders and mages are getting afflictions and dying from BoT and your income is dropping down while unrest is going up. Of course, this can be doable in some situations, so I wouldn't rule it out. It's just not very likely.

8. That is definitely a good solution but you have to know what mage cast it (can be red in Messages in 2.08 Version) and where he is. Finding that mage is usually very tough, but if you do find him - killing him would be best solution.

9. In order to empower mage you need astral gems (and a lot of them). For non-astral nation it’s not a valid solution since they have no astral income.

10. Hardly doable in SP game. Basically same as 4. Not to mention that if you can't dispel it yourself (have not enough gems), how could you help other nations do it? By cheering for them? J

11. Cheaper units die faster from BoT since they are less resistant and have less HP. Actually using large, more powerful troops is better way to go. They will get afflictions but won’t die and unit with affliction is certainly better then dead one. Basically you can either use all your income to buy troops or not, but if you buy cheap troops you will only get nearly useless army that will die like flies each turn from BoT and will additionally get overrun by and other army they encounter. This one is hardly any better then 2 or 3.

12. Independent mages hardly ever have more then 1 level in astral, and you need luck to find them at all (usually sages are your only option). Have you ever tried to get your sage to level 3 astral and dispel something with him? I never did since by the time you manage to do it, game is usually over. And it still depends too much on luck even to find one. And if you don’t have one by the time BoT is cast this is impossible to achieve since it takes too much time to do it. BoT is gonna get you.

13. Nation with astral pretender is no longer non-astral nation so it has no place in this discussion.

14. So instead of letting AI kill you and spend 70 gems for it, you are gonna kill yourself and spend 70 gems for it? BoT has effect on ALL LIVING TROOPS, not to mention killing population and increasing unrest.

15. Gift of Health is good buffer for BoT so this is a good delaying solution for nature nations. Of course only 1 can be cast at the time and there are usually several nations on map that will be able to cast it. AI actually like casting it so you will be hard pressed and need some luck to make sure active ‘Gift of Health’ it YOUR ‘Gift of Health’ but its doable. I often resort to this if I can't dispel BoT.

16. Much like 6.

-------------------

In MP this is completely another story. Only death nations will benefit from it and death nations have diplomacy problems with other players without this spell. Casting it would basically give you Mega evil empire status (from SE4). You would most certainly get gang banged from every other player on that map. Imagine your provinces getting bLasted with every damaging spell available from every other nation on map, while their troops invade all your borders looking under every bush and rock to find smart mage that casted BoT. You would probably be better of killing caster yourself then waiting for other players to do it.

[Xavier]

edit: dammit nevermind, I completely forgot I was only at the top of the second page of this thread and not the end of the thread....

...*mumbles something about reverse post order*....

[ February 14, 2004, 09:35: Message edited by: Xavier ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
...
4. Wait for an astral nation to dispel it.
4. In SP you might as well use 2 or 3. It’s extremely rare occurrence that AI dispels GE. It usually overwrites it with BoT of it’s own and that won’t help you.

If so, I'm lucky. The only time I've seen the AI cast BoT, the very next turn, another AI dispelled it.

...
9. In order to empower mage you need astral gems (and a lot of them). For non-astral nation it’s not a valid solution since they have no astral income.

Your arguments seem to assume the player's nation is rather weak, to be ruling out so many options. Such assumptions aren't saying much about BoT - you're mainly saying that if you're weak and they're strong and using BoT on you, then you're in trouble. If you're that weak though, you're in trouble when they do anything to you. Being unable to dispel any global enchantments is of course a weak situation to be in - many global spells are hard to deal with if you can't dispel them or cast something better yourself.

On the other hand, getting someone up to enough Astral to be able to dispel isn't all that hard. I did it with Iron Faith Ulm with an Astral-1 priest, and it wasn't hard. There are some items that can make this pretty cheap, especially if you have construction bonuses. If you assume they don't have astral gems to do this, you're saying they're too lame to dispel anyway. And you're probably ignoring that any gems can be made into astral gems at a 2:1 rate with alchemy, if need be.

As for cheaper units being more vulnerable to BoT... how does BoT take effect? What resists it?

PvK

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by PvK:
If so, I'm lucky. The only time I've seen the AI cast BoT, the very next turn, another AI dispelled it.

Very lucky. In my games BoT is cast at 1:3 ratio during first 30 turns. In my Last game Jotunheim cast it on turn 15. Never saw AI dispel it.

Your arguments seem to assume the player's nation is rather weak, to be ruling out so many options. Such assumptions aren't saying much about BoT - you're mainly saying that if you're weak and they're strong and using BoT on you, then you're in trouble. If you're that weak though, you're in trouble when they do anything to you. Being unable to dispel any global enchantments is of course a weak situation to be in - many global spells are hard to deal with if you can't dispel them or cast something better yourself.

On the other hand, getting someone up to enough Astral to be able to dispel isn't all that hard. I did it with Iron Faith Ulm with an Astral-1 priest, and it wasn't hard. There are some items that can make this pretty cheap, especially if you have construction bonuses. If you assume they don't have astral gems to do this, you're saying they're too lame to dispel anyway. And you're probably ignoring that any gems can be made into astral gems at a 2:1 rate with alchemy, if need be.

Not necessarily weak, just assuming it is cast early in game since it is level 5 spell and AI is able to cast it much sooner in game, limiting your options greatly. In order to empower mage to cast dispel using alchemy you need large gem income (100 gems to make 50 astral gems and give mage 1st level of astral, 60 gems for 30 astral for 2nd). You do need to research dispel which is also 5th level like BoT, and if you try to use items to boost astral on mage, you need level 6 in construction as well. All this is assuming you direct your research efforts and gem income to counter BoT at the start of the game, not after BoT is cast. If BoT is already cast, you simply have no time to boost and research what is needed to dispel it.

I am assuming this is on default game settings, not gold/magic rich/poor maps.

As for cheaper units being more vulnerable to BoT... how does BoT take effect? What resists it?

Not entirely sure about what helps resist it, but I know high HP helps. Mages seem to be quite vulnerable to it so magic resistance is unlucky to be helpful against it (though I'm not 100% sure about it). Sage’s die quite often from it so that is why empowering one may be bad idea. Units in Ashikaga mod seem to endure it quite well but I'm not sure why (their units mostly get afflictions, and not die).


-------


I'll post best strategies to counter BoT for each nation separately that I know of, so fell free to add any comments.

Abyssia - In next patch demons won't be affected by BoT so best way is to focus on blood economy (which is what you probably already do playing this nation) and rely on demons as your army. Also, using national hero as assassin to find and kill caster is valid option.

Atlantis - I'm not sure how is Atlantis affected by BoT but their best bet is to rely on dispel, since they are astral nation.

Pythum - Powerful astral nation so dispelling it is probably easiest for them. They can even try to use the 'Vengeance of the Dead' spell to kill the caster.
They will have more trouble if they use 'Serpent cult' theme, so they should go for Gift of Health if they can't dispel it.

Man - Gift of Health, try to find the caster and use seeking arrow if possible or some other means to kill him. Crones seem to be quite vulnerable to BoT so Man player will have problems as soon as BoT is cast.

Ulm - I don't play much Ulm, but they would probably have most trouble with BoT considering their inferiority in magic area. Use what you can or simply try to overrun enemy that casts BoT (and hope he is the only one). Whatever you do, do it fast.

C'tis - If you play default or miasma, you can try to go for undead troops until you or someone else dispels it. They have astral income and shamans so they can go for dispel.
If you play 'Desert Tombs' theme, you don't want BoT removed! Even if it affects your income, switch all your undead priests to raise soulless and you will have huge army even sooner then Ermor.

Arcoschepale - Dispel is valid option on both themes and they have Priestess to heal troops so BoT shouldn't bother them much.

Caelum - Using surgical strike with flying troops on caster is possible option (if you manage to find him and he is not that strongly protected). BoT will hurt them so they have to think about counter before BoT is cast.

Ermor - They get only benefits from BoT so no counter needed.

Marignon - Varies with the theme. Default could go for dispel.
'Diabolical' faith could go for demons (like Abyssia) and think about dispelling it in the future, although they wont be as affected as other nations.
'Conquerors of the sea' Marignon can get it dispelled more easily then previous 2 themes.

Panganea - Go for 'Gift of Health' until you find and kill the caster. Most of their troops heal afflictions automatically and have significant number of HP so they won't be hit so hard as most other living nations.
If you use 'Carrion Woods' theme, you will benefit from BoT.

Vanheim - This will be more difficult, but they can try to go for blood economy and build demon or undead troops until they manage to get rid of BoT by some other means. Vanheim can be hurt badly with BoT so you should think and prepare to counter it before it is cast.

Jotunheim - Their troops have lots of HP so they should get mostly afflictions from BoT. They have a wide variety of options that covers using undead or/and demon troops, dispelling it or simply trampling foolish nation that hides caster.

R'lyeh - Dispel is best and fastest option. You don't want undead armies massing and invading sea provinces.

Mictlan - They can use both demons and dispel it (using their moon priests). They should preferably do it both since their normal troops aren’t very resistant and mages can die from BoT as well (which hurts Mictlan much more).

T'ien Chi - Dispel it FAST. Could use a little preparation before BoT is cast, but using alchemy to speed up dispel is probably best for this nation.

Machaka - 'Gift of Health' is valid option and their best mages aren't so vulnerable to BoT. Still, you will want to get rid of it ASAP. If you get Black Sorcerer with astral skill, you can try going for 'Vengeance of the Dead' to kill caster.

Overall, counters depend on lots of factors, like who casted spell (if caster is enemy pretender you will probably have hard time killing him – Vengeance of the Dead is probably best way to get rid of pretender caster), your pretender (all nations can get good astral income if they use astral pretender), your and enemy location (if nation that has BoT active is on the other side of the map, attacking it using normal troops is hardly and option), etc.

[ February 14, 2004, 12:54: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
All this is assuming you direct your research efforts and gem income to counter BoT at the start of the game, not after BoT is cast. If BoT is already cast, you simply have no time to boost and research what is needed to dispel it.

Of course you can do it. I've done it with default Ulm while fighting against an Impossible C'Tis, Marignon, and Abysia.