Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
BTW, I think the complexion and balance of the game will be dramatically changed if IW allows for the tactic of hit-n-run mages, or as Norfleet might phrase it, drive-by castings.

Hit-and-run priesting is the bane of my armies. I ran into this in my first multiplayer game with my clan, purely by accident: He had sent priests as commanders of his regular armies, who banished, and when his regular armies got slaughtered, his commanders auto-routed.

I, of course, being inherently suspicious, interpreted it as a deliberate act, which simply inspired him to actually *MAKE* it a deliberate act, and so progress against his empire literally ground to a halt as every turn, my horde of marauding undead would be decimated in a hit-and-run, drive-by priesting. It's definitely workable, if you deliberately build for it.

Hit-and-run is definitely a workable tactic that can counter any attempt to make a line-drive for your capitol, provided you're willing to be a little flexible about the holding of territory: Guerrilla mages can definitely put a cramp in one's style.

An expansion on this would be very interesting for Dominions II: Sneaking units that can perform sneaking retreats, even into enemy territory, that are thus able to harass and attack enemy forces in a campaign of guerrilla warfare.

[ February 10, 2004, 07:12: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
progress against his empire literally ground to a halt as every turn, my horde of marauding undead would be decimated in a hit-and-run, drive-by priesting

Yes, I can see how cheap, 50gp human priests, recruitable at most land temples, given orders of Banishment x5, Retreat, can be the bane (pun intended) of Ermorian-style hordes, and why folks here say that Ermor isn't very difficult to counter in MP. A handful of them, thrown into the path of advancing undead, can just ruin months of work assembling such a horde. It does my soul good to think about it. hehe

So, Norfy, I'm glad you're taking the time to read my AAR. Even if you haven't been commenting on the AAR itself. But your "drive-by priesting" phrase is so amusing to me that I forgive you your sins.

I will leave you with the mental image of a red-armored knight riding a white dragon (called 'gold leader') flying inside a very long chasm filled with randomly-spaced ballista-armed watchtowers, yelling to another flyer "stay on topic ... stay on topic ..." {yes, I'm a huge SW fan}

[ February 10, 2004, 09:40: Message edited by: Arryn ]

[Patrik]

Not wanting to start a big argument here (but doing it anyway ), but it seems you gave up on an Air Wyrm a little bit to easy (not taking into account the range of BE). IME, the Seithkona will very reliably cast BE (and Luck) on the Wyrm BEFORE casting it on herself. Thus, after researching Enchantment 3, you can start the battle with the Seithkona casting BE and Luck and the Wyrm casting Mistform, Mirror Image and then attacking.

The weakness is (as you have pointed out) protecting the Seithkona. I try to do this by having one 'suicide' troop in the other end of the battlefield. If you place your troops right, the enemy won't reach him before the Wyrm starts moving forward (and thus the seithkona will never be targeted). Alternatively, you can skip MI (the Wyrm not having very good defense anyway) and go Mistform, Flight, Attack closest instead. In that way, you can start the Wyrm far back and get it to the front in time to take the initial enemy charge. Of course, troop placement will be crucial.

IMO, an Astral Wyrm is easier to use, but with national Astral mages, an Air Wyrm can be just as good (with careful planning and troop placement). In MP, I would like to have at least 6, preferably 7 on a Astral pretender, making the Air Wyrm a much cheaper choice.

As for using a Pretender with the same magic as your national gem income, I agree that it can be important sometimes, but IMO not in your case. Your Wyrm only has Astral 4 and you will get plenty of Nornas with Astral 3. And Astral can very easily be boosted in combat... OTOH, having easy access to air spells such as Storm, Mass Flight and Fog Warriors is great for all nations. And alchemy from Astral gems for the purpose of casting battle field spells is not a big deal.

Just my two cents of course (oh, BTW, despite being quite expensive, I would definitely consider a 3 Air, 3 Earth Wyrm. Invulnerability, Mistform and Mirror Image, and BE/Luck from a Seithkona. Try hurting that one ).

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Patrik:
Not wanting to start a big argument here (but doing it anyway

It's not an argument, Pat. My purpose for this AAR thread is educational. And that includes myself. Despite any impressions to the contrary, I'm open to differing ideas.

it seems you gave up on an Air Wyrm a little bit to easy (not taking into account the range of BE).

I agree that I did.

The weakness is (as you have pointed out) protecting the Seithkona. I try to do this by having one 'suicide' troop in the other end of the battlefield. If you place your troops right, the enemy won't reach him before the Wyrm starts moving forward (and thus the seithkona will never be targeted).

I may have too much of an aVersion to sacrificing units. It just goes against my grain. Call it a weakness of mine that you can exploit. But this is, indeed, a viable tactic.

Alternatively, you can skip MI (the Wyrm not having very good defense anyway) and go Mistform, Flight, Attack closest instead. In that way, you can start the Wyrm far back and get it to the front in time to take the initial enemy charge. Of course, troop placement will be crucial.

I would prefer to script 'rear' rather than 'closest', to take full advantage of the Flight. The downside is that my troops would have to fend for themselves while I ravaged the enemy commanders and missile troops. IMO, Flight is the primary reason why I would deign to use an Air Wyrm. However, I'm not so sure that giving up Astral Shield (or Weapon) for Flight is wise for an SC. Though I admit that Flight is of immense value in the capture of forts. I look forward to hearing the opinions of others on this.

IMO, an Astral Wyrm is easier to use, but with national Astral mages, an Air Wyrm can be just as good (with careful planning and troop placement).

It may be of interest that when Zen suggested the Astral Wyrm to me, I'd just lost, badly, in a 4-player blitz MP game for VPs, using a dual-bless nature/water Son of Niefel. I'm sure that "easier to use" was on his mind.

As for using a Pretender with the same magic as your national gem income, I agree that it can be important sometimes, but IMO not in your case. Your Wyrm only has Astral 4 and you will get plenty of Nornas with Astral 3.

This is where we fundamentally disagree. Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, Teleport, and Gateway are all caster-only. Flight, like BE, can be cast by someone other than the SC. The real question is trading the two astral enchantments in the early game for flight, with the understanding that the SC will not be able to cast the more powerful, caster-only astral spells later on. Conjuration-6 will get me an air-2 mage, in the form of a Harbinger, for 25 astral gems, which by the time I have Conj-6 should be no problem. So the option of flight (and other nice air spells) is still open, just delayed until the mid-game.

BTW, despite being quite expensive, I would definitely consider a 3 Air, 3 Earth Wyrm. Invulnerability, Mistform and Mirror Image, and BE/Luck from a Seithkona. Try hurting that one.

Now this is an intriguing concept I may have to play around with a bit. Thanks!

[Wendigo]

I concur with Patrik.

Jotun's biggest weakness is the lack of random picks in fire/earth/air.
Getting air on the pretender gives you among others access to air magic, wards vs air, protection vs missiles & protection vs fliers...all stuff you do not have.
Your cold dominion & your air proficiency also offer a degree of protection vs fire.

Getting astral on your pretender doesn't help compensate for this, and in addition makes your other vulnerability (being a 2nd tier astral nation) even bigger, as now both your battle mages & your pretender are vulnerable to Magic duel. This will not hurt you in SP, but can easily doom you in MP.

While you could get a high lv of astral to avoid this vulnerability a Wyrm doesn't cut it as a SC in the end game, so investing in high astral would not be a good idea IMO. Non humanoid pretenders can barely stand vs fully equipped humanoid ones when Const4+ is researched, much less when artifacts come into play.
The Wyrm works as a relatively expendable, easy to use, forgivable with mistakes Pretender for early expansion both in land & seas. Trying to turn the critter into something else with more than some token magic is a waste of design points IMO.

[Arryn]

I haven't discussed it before now, but I never intended for the Wyrm to act as an SC beyond the mid-game, if even that far. I'm quite aware of the limitations of not having humanoid item slots for SCs in the latter half of the game.

Astral-5 (6 with a cap and 7 with a cap & coin) should be adequate defense in MP. To effectively threaten you they will have to invest considerably in boosting an astral mage of their own, which they may or may not be able to do, depending on what they are playing.

So far, the arguments I am seeing favoring taking air fail to address the question I asked in return: In the early game, does the gain from taking air offset the loss from not taking astral? I'm still waiting for an answer to this, specific, question ...

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Astral-5 (6 with a cap and 7 with a cap & coin) should be adequate defense in MP. To effectively threaten you they will have to invest considerably in boosting an astral mage of their own, which they may or may not be able to do, depending on what they are playing.
[/QB]

This assumes:
-That you do not die nor get afflicted (quite of an assumption for someone that plans on hiding his whole army behind his Pretender).
-That you make it to const6 before a possible hostile Pythium/R'lyeh/Arco makes it to Evo3 (for your skullcap).
-That you forge a 2E-2O item when you have no mages with earth proficiency.

So far, the arguments I am seeing favoring taking air fail to address the question I asked in return: In the early game, does the gain from taking air offset the loss from not taking astral? I'm still waiting for an answer to this, specific, question ... [/QB]

Yes. Both in the early, mid & end game. Talking from experience, I won my Last 2 MP games as Jotun.

In the early game it will protect you vs missiles & fliers, in the mid & end game vs lightning & air elementals. It gives you an additional magic field also. Astral however, gives you nothing that you already do not have.