Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

[Patrik]

Not wanting to start a big argument here (but doing it anyway ), but it seems you gave up on an Air Wyrm a little bit to easy (not taking into account the range of BE). IME, the Seithkona will very reliably cast BE (and Luck) on the Wyrm BEFORE casting it on herself. Thus, after researching Enchantment 3, you can start the battle with the Seithkona casting BE and Luck and the Wyrm casting Mistform, Mirror Image and then attacking.

The weakness is (as you have pointed out) protecting the Seithkona. I try to do this by having one 'suicide' troop in the other end of the battlefield. If you place your troops right, the enemy won't reach him before the Wyrm starts moving forward (and thus the seithkona will never be targeted). Alternatively, you can skip MI (the Wyrm not having very good defense anyway) and go Mistform, Flight, Attack closest instead. In that way, you can start the Wyrm far back and get it to the front in time to take the initial enemy charge. Of course, troop placement will be crucial.

IMO, an Astral Wyrm is easier to use, but with national Astral mages, an Air Wyrm can be just as good (with careful planning and troop placement). In MP, I would like to have at least 6, preferably 7 on a Astral pretender, making the Air Wyrm a much cheaper choice.

As for using a Pretender with the same magic as your national gem income, I agree that it can be important sometimes, but IMO not in your case. Your Wyrm only has Astral 4 and you will get plenty of Nornas with Astral 3. And Astral can very easily be boosted in combat... OTOH, having easy access to air spells such as Storm, Mass Flight and Fog Warriors is great for all nations. And alchemy from Astral gems for the purpose of casting battle field spells is not a big deal.

Just my two cents of course (oh, BTW, despite being quite expensive, I would definitely consider a 3 Air, 3 Earth Wyrm. Invulnerability, Mistform and Mirror Image, and BE/Luck from a Seithkona. Try hurting that one ).

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Patrik:
Not wanting to start a big argument here (but doing it anyway

It's not an argument, Pat. My purpose for this AAR thread is educational. And that includes myself. Despite any impressions to the contrary, I'm open to differing ideas.

it seems you gave up on an Air Wyrm a little bit to easy (not taking into account the range of BE).

I agree that I did.

The weakness is (as you have pointed out) protecting the Seithkona. I try to do this by having one 'suicide' troop in the other end of the battlefield. If you place your troops right, the enemy won't reach him before the Wyrm starts moving forward (and thus the seithkona will never be targeted).

I may have too much of an aVersion to sacrificing units. It just goes against my grain. Call it a weakness of mine that you can exploit. But this is, indeed, a viable tactic.

Alternatively, you can skip MI (the Wyrm not having very good defense anyway) and go Mistform, Flight, Attack closest instead. In that way, you can start the Wyrm far back and get it to the front in time to take the initial enemy charge. Of course, troop placement will be crucial.

I would prefer to script 'rear' rather than 'closest', to take full advantage of the Flight. The downside is that my troops would have to fend for themselves while I ravaged the enemy commanders and missile troops. IMO, Flight is the primary reason why I would deign to use an Air Wyrm. However, I'm not so sure that giving up Astral Shield (or Weapon) for Flight is wise for an SC. Though I admit that Flight is of immense value in the capture of forts. I look forward to hearing the opinions of others on this.

IMO, an Astral Wyrm is easier to use, but with national Astral mages, an Air Wyrm can be just as good (with careful planning and troop placement).

It may be of interest that when Zen suggested the Astral Wyrm to me, I'd just lost, badly, in a 4-player blitz MP game for VPs, using a dual-bless nature/water Son of Niefel. I'm sure that "easier to use" was on his mind.

As for using a Pretender with the same magic as your national gem income, I agree that it can be important sometimes, but IMO not in your case. Your Wyrm only has Astral 4 and you will get plenty of Nornas with Astral 3.

This is where we fundamentally disagree. Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, Teleport, and Gateway are all caster-only. Flight, like BE, can be cast by someone other than the SC. The real question is trading the two astral enchantments in the early game for flight, with the understanding that the SC will not be able to cast the more powerful, caster-only astral spells later on. Conjuration-6 will get me an air-2 mage, in the form of a Harbinger, for 25 astral gems, which by the time I have Conj-6 should be no problem. So the option of flight (and other nice air spells) is still open, just delayed until the mid-game.

BTW, despite being quite expensive, I would definitely consider a 3 Air, 3 Earth Wyrm. Invulnerability, Mistform and Mirror Image, and BE/Luck from a Seithkona. Try hurting that one.

Now this is an intriguing concept I may have to play around with a bit. Thanks!

[Wendigo]

I concur with Patrik.

Jotun's biggest weakness is the lack of random picks in fire/earth/air.
Getting air on the pretender gives you among others access to air magic, wards vs air, protection vs missiles & protection vs fliers...all stuff you do not have.
Your cold dominion & your air proficiency also offer a degree of protection vs fire.

Getting astral on your pretender doesn't help compensate for this, and in addition makes your other vulnerability (being a 2nd tier astral nation) even bigger, as now both your battle mages & your pretender are vulnerable to Magic duel. This will not hurt you in SP, but can easily doom you in MP.

While you could get a high lv of astral to avoid this vulnerability a Wyrm doesn't cut it as a SC in the end game, so investing in high astral would not be a good idea IMO. Non humanoid pretenders can barely stand vs fully equipped humanoid ones when Const4+ is researched, much less when artifacts come into play.
The Wyrm works as a relatively expendable, easy to use, forgivable with mistakes Pretender for early expansion both in land & seas. Trying to turn the critter into something else with more than some token magic is a waste of design points IMO.

[Arryn]

I haven't discussed it before now, but I never intended for the Wyrm to act as an SC beyond the mid-game, if even that far. I'm quite aware of the limitations of not having humanoid item slots for SCs in the latter half of the game.

Astral-5 (6 with a cap and 7 with a cap & coin) should be adequate defense in MP. To effectively threaten you they will have to invest considerably in boosting an astral mage of their own, which they may or may not be able to do, depending on what they are playing.

So far, the arguments I am seeing favoring taking air fail to address the question I asked in return: In the early game, does the gain from taking air offset the loss from not taking astral? I'm still waiting for an answer to this, specific, question ...

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Astral-5 (6 with a cap and 7 with a cap & coin) should be adequate defense in MP. To effectively threaten you they will have to invest considerably in boosting an astral mage of their own, which they may or may not be able to do, depending on what they are playing.
[/QB]

This assumes:
-That you do not die nor get afflicted (quite of an assumption for someone that plans on hiding his whole army behind his Pretender).
-That you make it to const6 before a possible hostile Pythium/R'lyeh/Arco makes it to Evo3 (for your skullcap).
-That you forge a 2E-2O item when you have no mages with earth proficiency.

So far, the arguments I am seeing favoring taking air fail to address the question I asked in return: In the early game, does the gain from taking air offset the loss from not taking astral? I'm still waiting for an answer to this, specific, question ... [/QB]

Yes. Both in the early, mid & end game. Talking from experience, I won my Last 2 MP games as Jotun.

In the early game it will protect you vs missiles & fliers, in the mid & end game vs lightning & air elementals. It gives you an additional magic field also. Astral however, gives you nothing that you already do not have.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
This assumes:
-That you do not die nor get afflicted

A risk in any battle, regardless. If one dies, one is screwed. End of story. There is little point in dwelling overmuch on it. The Wyrm regens, and the chances of a Wyrm taking the feeblemind injury in melee are remote.

(quite of an assumption for someone that plans on hiding his whole army behind his Pretender)

I never said this was my sole strategy, nor one I use injudiciously. Please don't twist my words. What I said was that I do this fairly often, against small-to-moderate sized enemy forces. Forces I feel reasonably safe in using it against, based on prior experience.

That you make it to const6 before a possible hostile Pythium/R'lyeh/Arco makes it to Evo3 (for your skullcap).

And you assume that those same possible hostiles also have an astral caster of L5+. Your assumption is no better than mine, I think. Is it common to find players of Pythium, R'lyeh, or Arco taking Astral-5+ pretenders? After all, don't many of the same arguments about diversifying paths apply to them as well?

That you forge a 2E-2O item when you have no mages with earth proficiency.

For the coin. I never said I'd be sure to be able to do so, or to do it quickly, only that it's possible. Again, you are twisting my words.

In the early game it will protect you vs missiles & fliers

Versus fliers how? If you mean Storm, that's Evoc-5, which is past the early game (by my reckoning), and would hurt me more than help, unless I give up the idea of flying myself. However, if I do, then Storm is certainly a wonderful defensive spell -- that any air-4 mage can cast.

in the mid & end game vs lightning & air elementals. It gives you an additional magic field also.

I've never been struck by lightning or air elementals. Just fire spells, and fire/water/earth elementals. Perhaps I've just been lucky so far and no opponents have been strong in air. The biggest advantage I see is the extra path early on. I'm just not so sure, still, that it's worth it. But I'll very likely try it in another game. I play lots of SP games, and have 6 ones active at the moment, that I switch between to avoid boredom.

Astral however, gives you nothing that you already do not have.

This is not true, but there's little point in rehashing it, if it's not clear enough by now.

BTW, thanks for the discussion. It's helpful.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Even if you haven't been commenting on the AAR itself.

Well, I like the AAR and all, but it's a tad difficult to comment on it much when you've admitted that, a long time ago, you hit turn 18, and by now, are probably on turn 180...and your AAR is lagging behind at turn 9. That kinda makes it ancient history, y'know? All in all, I'd say you're doing pretty well.

I'm not entirely sure why everyone is so concerned about Astral-5, and magic duel, though. The way I see it, anyone who's taken Astral-anything, and hasn't gone totally nuts with his astral level, is subject to being potted in a magic duel against nations like Arco or Pythium anyway: It's not all that hard to communion-boost Astral mages to a level where potting even an Astral 5 or 6 isn't an even shot for a Theurg or an Astrologer, and in most cases, a 50/50 shot at potting somebody's god and perhaps putting a major kink in his plans is worth it, especially if you throw 4 or 5 dueller at him in a row, which all but guarantees you WILL get him. Am I missing something? What's so special about Astral 5? Don't you need to be 6 levels above to survive a magic duelling spree?