Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

[Wendigo]

I concur with Patrik.

Jotun's biggest weakness is the lack of random picks in fire/earth/air.
Getting air on the pretender gives you among others access to air magic, wards vs air, protection vs missiles & protection vs fliers...all stuff you do not have.
Your cold dominion & your air proficiency also offer a degree of protection vs fire.

Getting astral on your pretender doesn't help compensate for this, and in addition makes your other vulnerability (being a 2nd tier astral nation) even bigger, as now both your battle mages & your pretender are vulnerable to Magic duel. This will not hurt you in SP, but can easily doom you in MP.

While you could get a high lv of astral to avoid this vulnerability a Wyrm doesn't cut it as a SC in the end game, so investing in high astral would not be a good idea IMO. Non humanoid pretenders can barely stand vs fully equipped humanoid ones when Const4+ is researched, much less when artifacts come into play.
The Wyrm works as a relatively expendable, easy to use, forgivable with mistakes Pretender for early expansion both in land & seas. Trying to turn the critter into something else with more than some token magic is a waste of design points IMO.

[Arryn]

I haven't discussed it before now, but I never intended for the Wyrm to act as an SC beyond the mid-game, if even that far. I'm quite aware of the limitations of not having humanoid item slots for SCs in the latter half of the game.

Astral-5 (6 with a cap and 7 with a cap & coin) should be adequate defense in MP. To effectively threaten you they will have to invest considerably in boosting an astral mage of their own, which they may or may not be able to do, depending on what they are playing.

So far, the arguments I am seeing favoring taking air fail to address the question I asked in return: In the early game, does the gain from taking air offset the loss from not taking astral? I'm still waiting for an answer to this, specific, question ...

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Astral-5 (6 with a cap and 7 with a cap & coin) should be adequate defense in MP. To effectively threaten you they will have to invest considerably in boosting an astral mage of their own, which they may or may not be able to do, depending on what they are playing.
[/QB]

This assumes:
-That you do not die nor get afflicted (quite of an assumption for someone that plans on hiding his whole army behind his Pretender).
-That you make it to const6 before a possible hostile Pythium/R'lyeh/Arco makes it to Evo3 (for your skullcap).
-That you forge a 2E-2O item when you have no mages with earth proficiency.

So far, the arguments I am seeing favoring taking air fail to address the question I asked in return: In the early game, does the gain from taking air offset the loss from not taking astral? I'm still waiting for an answer to this, specific, question ... [/QB]

Yes. Both in the early, mid & end game. Talking from experience, I won my Last 2 MP games as Jotun.

In the early game it will protect you vs missiles & fliers, in the mid & end game vs lightning & air elementals. It gives you an additional magic field also. Astral however, gives you nothing that you already do not have.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
This assumes:
-That you do not die nor get afflicted

A risk in any battle, regardless. If one dies, one is screwed. End of story. There is little point in dwelling overmuch on it. The Wyrm regens, and the chances of a Wyrm taking the feeblemind injury in melee are remote.

(quite of an assumption for someone that plans on hiding his whole army behind his Pretender)

I never said this was my sole strategy, nor one I use injudiciously. Please don't twist my words. What I said was that I do this fairly often, against small-to-moderate sized enemy forces. Forces I feel reasonably safe in using it against, based on prior experience.

That you make it to const6 before a possible hostile Pythium/R'lyeh/Arco makes it to Evo3 (for your skullcap).

And you assume that those same possible hostiles also have an astral caster of L5+. Your assumption is no better than mine, I think. Is it common to find players of Pythium, R'lyeh, or Arco taking Astral-5+ pretenders? After all, don't many of the same arguments about diversifying paths apply to them as well?

That you forge a 2E-2O item when you have no mages with earth proficiency.

For the coin. I never said I'd be sure to be able to do so, or to do it quickly, only that it's possible. Again, you are twisting my words.

In the early game it will protect you vs missiles & fliers

Versus fliers how? If you mean Storm, that's Evoc-5, which is past the early game (by my reckoning), and would hurt me more than help, unless I give up the idea of flying myself. However, if I do, then Storm is certainly a wonderful defensive spell -- that any air-4 mage can cast.

in the mid & end game vs lightning & air elementals. It gives you an additional magic field also.

I've never been struck by lightning or air elementals. Just fire spells, and fire/water/earth elementals. Perhaps I've just been lucky so far and no opponents have been strong in air. The biggest advantage I see is the extra path early on. I'm just not so sure, still, that it's worth it. But I'll very likely try it in another game. I play lots of SP games, and have 6 ones active at the moment, that I switch between to avoid boredom.

Astral however, gives you nothing that you already do not have.

This is not true, but there's little point in rehashing it, if it's not clear enough by now.

BTW, thanks for the discussion. It's helpful.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Even if you haven't been commenting on the AAR itself.

Well, I like the AAR and all, but it's a tad difficult to comment on it much when you've admitted that, a long time ago, you hit turn 18, and by now, are probably on turn 180...and your AAR is lagging behind at turn 9. That kinda makes it ancient history, y'know? All in all, I'd say you're doing pretty well.

I'm not entirely sure why everyone is so concerned about Astral-5, and magic duel, though. The way I see it, anyone who's taken Astral-anything, and hasn't gone totally nuts with his astral level, is subject to being potted in a magic duel against nations like Arco or Pythium anyway: It's not all that hard to communion-boost Astral mages to a level where potting even an Astral 5 or 6 isn't an even shot for a Theurg or an Astrologer, and in most cases, a 50/50 shot at potting somebody's god and perhaps putting a major kink in his plans is worth it, especially if you throw 4 or 5 dueller at him in a row, which all but guarantees you WILL get him. Am I missing something? What's so special about Astral 5? Don't you need to be 6 levels above to survive a magic duelling spree?

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Well, I like the AAR and all, but it's a tad difficult to comment on it much when you've admitted that, a long time ago, you hit turn 18, and by now, are probably on turn 180...and your AAR is lagging behind at turn 9. That kinda makes it ancient history, y'know? All in all, I'd say you're doing pretty well.

I stopped at turn 18, which was when I got the idea to write the AAR. I have not gone further because I wanted the feedback from the forum before I went ahead. So far, though, the comments have been all about what I did before turn 1 and nothing about what's been done afterwards. Perhaps I should have expected this, since so many people appear to focus strongly on optimizing the pretender design, and much less so on how the pretender is actually used afterwards. In military terms, more on strategy and less on tactics. BTW, real military officers are taught tactics first, then strategy. It's a bottom-up technique of building from the basics. As Bayushi Tasogare noted, strategy derived from tactics. In this case, pretender design based on combat usage.

It's not all that hard to communion-boost Astral mages to a level where potting even an Astral 5 or 6 isn't an even shot for a Theurg or an Astrologer, and in most cases, a 50/50 shot at potting somebody's god and perhaps putting a major kink in his plans is worth it

Thank you for pointing out what I'd been overlooking: communion. If this is so easy to do, and so dangerous, why would anyone ever take Astral? What's the counter (since Dom seems to have a counter-strategy to everything)?

[Wendigo]

You already made up your mind to ignore counsel from more experienced players , so be it. I will make one Last attempt and leave you to make your own mistakes & learn from them.

You are using your Wyrm at the front of your armies, it's going to die & get hurt vs competent opponents whether you like it or not, I have killed my fair share of Wyrms to know it. And when it dies, it will lose magic levels and become more & more vulnerable to being magic dueled.

And you assume that those same possible hostiles also have an astral caster of L5+. Your assumption is no better than mine, I think. Is it common to find players of Pythium, R'lyeh, or Arco taking Astral-5+ pretenders? After all, don't many of the same arguments about diversifying paths apply to them as well?

It's in no way as adventurous as yours. Unlike Jotun, those nations can roll Astral 4& 5 mages. Unlike Jotun, those nations can forge the crystal coin. Those nations can afford to script a few mages to magic duel, knowing that only landing one removes your pretender & makes him more vulnerable to future duels.
You will not be duelled by pretenders, but by national mages.
Those nations are not restricted in their random picks as Jotun is, but you either do not know this or are sidesteping it. They do not need any particular magic on their pretenders as Jotun does. One random pick in fire/air...allows them to communion & cast the related wards.

Versus fliers how? If you mean Storm, that's Evoc-5, which is past the early game (by my reckoning), and would hurt me more than help, unless I give up the idea of flying myself. However, if I do, then Storm is certainly a wonderful defensive spell -- that any air-4 mage can cast.

Uhu? you have no fliers without air magic, nor the magic to summon them. SoS is constr4, easily early game.
You do not fly your pretender in the middle of the enemy army & in short range of all enemy mages if you want it to survive.

I've never been struck by lightning or air elementals. Just fire spells, and fire/water/earth elementals. Perhaps I've just been lucky so far and no opponents have been strong in air.

Peharps you need more experience.
Try sending your Wyrm vs a few orb lighning casting mages, or see how your army fares vs Wrathful skies.

edit-quoting was wrong

[ February 10, 2004, 18:53: Message edited by: Wendigo ]