Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Maybe he hacks them up in big metal chainballs later, like cats hack up hairballs?

That would bring new meaning to the idea of "projectile vomiting" ...

Had you perhaps found a way to act faster, this COULD have been avoided. Or at least postponed.

You've been reading this AAR from the beginning. You know that wasn't really an option, unless I was willing to just let Vanheim have Man, which would have been stupid. Ulm didn't begin its land grab until I was already committed against Van. I redirected my largest army, and my pretender, as fast as I could. Had Ulm waited 1-2 more turns I would have been even more awkwardly positioned than I had been. And I am not in the habit of starting needless wars when I am already involved in other wars.

So, I could have ignored Van, the (now-ex) #1 power in the world and let them take Man, grow even more powerful, and permitted them to come right up against my richest provinces (the ones surrounding Ashikaga), for the sake of grabbing some indies which weren't important -- at that time -- that I was using as a buffer against Ulm. And preemptively starting a war with a third-rate nation like Ulm who had been totally passive until I went after Van. I don't think this was ever a reasonable consideration. Had I done this, you would be harassing me about Van instead of Ulm, and rightfully so in such a case.

Go back through the AAR and be my guest at finding an appropriate, auspicious moment when it would have been good to grab the indies and/or instigated a war with Ulm (while at the same time stopping Van, the by far more dangerous enemy) -- with the caveat of only using the knowledge available to me at the time, and not 20/20 hindsight. If you can do so, which I sincerely doubt, I'll be gracious enough to acknowledge your point. Otherwise, please give it a rest.

You were also harping on Atlantis a while back, and has been amply seen, they have plenty of other ... fish to fry. Had I taken Ministra (as I did Imictan) I would have had yet *another* war I didn't want and been in even worse position to deal with.

So far, *my* timetable and plan has been achieving what I feel are acceptable results, methodical or plodding as it may sometimes be. You may find new amusement in seeing (on turn #40) that I am now a tad overextended. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't, Mr. Devil's Advocate.

Hey, don't mock my paranoia!

Why not? You're also the guy who pumps ridiculous amounts of gems into globals. These techniques of yours that perhaps serve you well in MP are unnecessary in SP. You have to keep the proper perspective about just what sort of game is being played, how good (or not) your opponents are. You and I both know full well just how aggressive (or not) the SP AI is. Just like you get a feel for your MP opponents, so you can react to each according to their weaknesses, so too is it fair to exploit the weakness of the SP AI (as compared to a human). We both know that many of the things I've been doing would be suicidal versus humans. I've always made that abundantly clear in this AAR, or at least I hope I have been, for the sake of the noobies.

P.S.
Did you get my AAR compilations on the end of the Argitothian Empire?

Yes, thanks, and I won't discuss it in this thread.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
You were also harping on Atlantis a while back, and has been amply seen, they have plenty of other ... fish to fry. Had I taken Ministra (as I did Imictan) I would have had yet *another* war I didn't want and been in even worse position to deal with.

Totally untrue. I did not, in fact, harp about Atlantis. Charon was the one who mentioned Atlantis, briefly, which I would hardly call harping on it. I explicitly stated not to do anything to antagonize them, and that the independent provinces in question should be taken only if an opportunity presented itself, such as if Atlantis shuffled off and left the place open, as their generally large coastal presence already meant they could attack anywhere at any time, and as an aquatic race, you weren't in a position to do anything about it. I believe we were in agreement on the issue at the time.

I still, however, assert that given that I had been harping about the impending Ulmish situation for a goodly 6 turns, you could have done SOMETHING in that time. You did, after all, have your wyrm sit unproductively and unsuccessfully sieging the Fort Man for a goodly 4+ months. Surely that was enough time for a quick stopover.

However, what's done is done. Attacking Arnbeg and closing off that tiresome point of exposure is definitely a sound move.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I still, however, assert that given that I had been harping about the impending Ulmish situation for a goodly 6 turns, you could have done SOMETHING in that time. You did, after all, have your wyrm sit unproductively and unsuccessfully sieging the Fort Man for a goodly 4+ months. Surely that was enough time for a quick stopover.

Aha! Thank you. Now we finally get to where your view is coming from, which had me puzzled. This is where I feel you are mistaken. Just because the wyrm was not damaging the fortress walls did not mean that having him there was unproductive. Quite the opposite. I destroyed several armies from Man and Vanheim, and I denied Van the victory over Man, which was the entire point of why I was there. Furthermore, from Man it was (at that time) 5 full turns worth of movement to attack the indies along my border with Ulm. Five turns of wasted time moving versus destroying Man/Van armies. I knew it was faster and more productive to finish the siege and then Teleport, and that is what I did.

I apologize for mixing you and Charon up regarding Atlantis. I wrongly assumed it was you without actually re-reading the Posts. When I went back and reviewed maps, I did so from local JPGs, not by rereading Posts. Also being doped up on antihistamines, decongestants, NSAIDs, and whatnot to keep from drowning in my own juices is not conducive to good memory or good judgment. It's why you haven't seen turn #40 yet. As for Arnbeg, once I'm committed to a war, I can hardly not prosecute it to the fullest of my ability. To do less is to be foolish.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Five turns of wasted time moving versus destroying Man/Van armies. I knew it was faster and more productive to finish the siege and then Teleport, and that is what I did.

I figured it would only be 4 turns of wasted movement. 1 to a lab, one to teleport to the target, 1 to build a new lab at the destination, 1 to teleport elsewhere. The same 4 turns you spent unsuccessfully sieging a fort, when you could have just let Vanheim and Man kill each other and cleaned up the mess afterwards.

Originally posted by Arryn:
I apologize for mixing you and Charon up regarding Atlantis. I wrongly assumed it was you without actually re-reading the Posts. When I went back and reviewed maps, I did so from local JPGs, not by rereading Posts. Also being doped up on antihistamines, decongestants, NSAIDs, and whatnot to keep from drowning in my own juices is not conducive to good memory or good judgment.

Don't feel too bad. I had to re-read the Posts to make sure you were definitely not correctly talking about me, too. Senility is not conducive to good memory either.

[ March 15, 2004, 03:18: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I figured it would only be 4 turns of wasted movement. 1 to a lab, one to teleport to the target, 1 to build a new lab at the destination, 1 to teleport elsewhere. The same 4 turns you spent unsuccessfully sieging a fort, when you could have just let Vanheim and Man kill each other and cleaned up the mess afterwards.

3 to the nearest lab, Ashikaga, from Man. Just as easy to not bother with the lab and move straight to whatever target, if that target was 4-5 moves away. I had to waste 3 moves just getting anywhere else from Man. Or one move to get away, and a second move to build a lab. I chose to kill Vans and use the lab cost to build 6 more Jotuns.

Plus, I really really wanted the damn air gems from Man.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
3 to the nearest lab, Ashikaga, from Man. Just as easy to not bother with the lab and move straight to whatever target, if that target was 4-5 moves away. I had to waste 3 moves just getting anywhere else from Man. Or one move to get away, and a second move to build a lab. I chose to kill Vans and use the lab cost to build 6 more Jotuns.

I can see your lab building habits don't closely resemble mine at all, then.

I like to keep labs within easy reach, because that way, my SC can simultaneously serve as a fast-response force to any such emergencies that crop up. The rest state of my SCs tends to always be at/near a lab, where I'm free to teleport/trapeze into any hotspot that requires attention. You probably view labs as something you build only for research and mage production. I tend to see them more as airbases.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I can see your lab building habits don't closely resemble mine at all, then.

I like to keep labs within easy reach, because that way, my SC can simultaneously serve as a fast-response force to any such emergencies that crop up. The rest state of my SCs tends to always be at/near a lab, where I'm free to teleport/trapeze into any hotspot that requires attention. You probably view labs as something you build only for research and mage production. I tend to see them more as airbases.

I normally don't play SCs, and it shows. BTW, I do build labs as "forward airbases", but typically 5-10 turns further into the game than I presently am, and likely not near to the degree that you do. I'm sure my approach thus far has been sub-optimal. It is, even by my own standards. I am, after all, still learning. OTOH, I'm also probably more risk-averse than you may be.