new orders planned?

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Then the armies would never clash, provided there was only archers in the battle. Retreat would be better than hold.

Which would be fine, if you then "fix" the game so that units which retreat remain in the same province if the rest of your army wins the battle. An alternative is that if a command like "fire & hold" is ordered, the game checks to see if there are only archers present, and if so, then forces a retreat. Whichever way is easier to implement. The intent is that your archers

- do not charge into melee after running out of ammo and,
- do not retreat into another province if you win the battle.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
There is a new function in hold and attack. Missile units will fire during hold and then attack.

Yay! That's a big improvement, especially for Tien Chi heavy cavalry! If the hold time was variable - or perhaps just offering two possibilities, "Hold 2 turns and attack" and "Hold 5 turns and attack", TC heavy cavs would be worth building.

If "Fire and Flee" could be modified to allow firing until the enemy is 1 turn away - or even until a unit engages in melee - archers and javelin units could be used for skirmishes and raids...

Originally posted by Arryn:
I meant "fire and hold". Sorry.

This would be great! Though actually, "Fire or Hold" would be best. If an enemy is in range, they fire until out of ammo; if no enemy is in range or once ammo runs out, they STAY IN POSITION, LIKE TRAINED ARCHERS IN AN ARMY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO!!!

If stalemate-avoidance is really crucial (I don't think it is), an exception could be hard-coded so that in any battle, if no units move or fire on either side for 10 turns (eg 2 Groups of archers waiting for the other group to move), all orders get deleted.

PLEASE!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!

-Cherry

[ February 10, 2004, 18:13: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
There is a new function in hold and attack. Missile units will fire during hold and then attack.

you mean in the incoming patch? That would be rather handy yes. But will they cease to fire when the 2 rounds are elapsed, to charge berserkly against the enemy? Because as of now a group of archer in hold&attack will do nothing, then attack without firing.

[Coffeedragon]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
"Fire or Hold" would be best.

Fire or Hold would be best.

This could also be given to non-missile units where the meaning would be "hold infinitely" (or at least "hold for 10 turns, and only then attack").

I don´t think there is any historic justification for not being able to give defensive orders.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Pocus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
There is a new function in hold and attack. Missile units will fire during hold and then attack.

you mean in the incoming patch? That would be rather handy yes. But will they cease to fire when the 2 rounds are elapsed, to charge berserkly against the enemy? Because as of now a group of archer in hold&attack will do nothing, then attack without firing.

---

Fire for some number of rounds and then charge the enemy is the *desired* behavior for Tien Chi cavalry, Daoine Sidhe, many other javelin armed infantry etc. (Although in the case of the javelineers, it would be nice if they used all their ammo first. I think the current "fire" order achieves this.)

However, I don't see why a "fire or hold" order (or firing by bodyguards) would be problematic. Dom II already enforces a time limit that resolves stalemated battles. At worst, you could have two regiments of archers that fire at each other, and if neither has routed by the time ammo is exhausted, they both stare across the battlefield at each other until the time limit arrives and the attacker retreats.

While this could certainly be unfortunate for the attacker, it's his own fault for not bringing a contingent of melee troops (or having them routed early) - or using the normal Fire order for his archers, which would let him give a target priority and have them attack when their ammo runs out. The battle will still end with a definite resolution.

Currently units such as Vanir, Daoine Sidhe, Red Guard, Centaur Warriors etc. are considerably reduced in effectiveness as bodyguards because they won't use all their weapons. To say nothing of the poor Things of Many Eyes which have no use if they can't even guard summoners...

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by Pocus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
There is a new function in hold and attack. Missile units will fire during hold and then attack.

you mean in the incoming patch? That would be rather handy yes. But will they cease to fire when the 2 rounds are elapsed, to charge berserkly against the enemy? Because as of now a group of archer in hold&attack will do nothing, then attack without firing.

---

This change is directed toward cavalry units. They will weaken enemy army that approaches and then charge into them. Makes those cavalry with bows actually useful. Why would you give your normal archers "Hold and Attack" order anyway?

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
To say nothing of the poor Things of Many Eyes which have no use if they can't even guard summoners...

As it stands now, they act as static meat shields. Not very useful, but I suppose it's better than nothing at all.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
No and no.

The second issue is not a bug. If bodyguards would be allowed to fire weapons it could result in two whole armies of missile troops just staring at each other across the field each sequestered in their respective corner and just waiting for the other side to close into range, which neither side would do since both were all on guard commander. Perhaps it would have been historically correct in some instances, but it has been decided against.

I don't mean to be rude, but I think that this is a bit ridiculous. I mean, on the one hand you avoid the very rare occurence of all troops being ordered to refrain from melee, and on the other you make missile troops on 'guard commander' totally worthless. It seems really obvious which of these is the most important. Plus which it has been pointed out that there is an allowance for a battle ending which would be in stalemate otherwise.

'Hold and Attack' orders allowing firing of missile weapons is (on the other hand) good news.

The thing that really gets me though is the 'fire and flee' command. As it is skirmishing is impossible, because your army of skirmishers will scatter to any adjacent provinces, inevitably meaning some are without commanders and cannot be regrouped. With all respect to Illwinter for an awesome game I must say that 'fire and flee' is broken. The change in 'Hold and Attack' doesn't help you skirmish, because the whole point is never to come to melee. Please please Illwinter make skirmishing possible - if you do it will change my style of play, and consequently the nations I play, considerably.

[Zapmeister]

Yes. By all means have the scattering behaviour for routing units. But units that deliberately retreat by any mechanism would and should stick together.

[Coffeedragon]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
'fire and flee' is broken.

Broken is usually understood to mean heavily over-powered. Fire and Flee is not broken, just pretty well useless.

[ February 11, 2004, 01:12: Message edited by: Coffeedragon ]