Should I buy this game?

Originally posted by Nethog:
My reason for ranking Space Empires low is not due to its lack of depth and strategic possibilities, but to the user interface:
(A) There is not enough *visual* feedback to assess your overall current strategic status in the game without examining a dozen info windows each turn.

With respect to (A), my personal opinion is that you should not be able to divine your strategic status in one standing analytical report. It comes from the fact that the amount of information and it's impact is easier to define and use for me personally if it is funneled into sectional data (Research, Income, etc).

The Strategic Map has the following:
Total Income, Total Upkeep, Treasury.
Provincial Information in Provincial Defense, Population, Provencial Income, Resources, Scales (though these are a bit annoying, I'd rather a number or graphical representation for ease of reference), Unrest, Supplies, Supply Usage, and Tax.

The Strategic Map also includes a visual representation of Fort, Army Size, Temple and Commander In Province, Dominion (yours and your enemies).

Selecting an Individual Province will of course allow you to give orders to any and all Commanders in said province, which also includes a popup menu for Commands (like Blood Hunt) if you are unfamiliar with the Hotkeys.

The F1 Key gives a fairly accurate summary of your empire, allowing you to click and adjust specific aspects (like Taxes and Provincial Defense are common ones) as well as know what provinces have been searched and what availiable searching power you have in any particular province. Also a /sword/ icon next to a province name indicates troops present (when next to a Commander, troops under his command). This allows an easier access to independant recruitment and supplementation to your armies. It also provides you with Supplies and Supplies Used.

F7 Allows you to see your total represented Gem Income

F5 Total research levels and RP

F8 Magical Items within your Lab

There are of course UI improvements that are to be desired, but this is pretty much the standard for most games I have played, they have their sections where you gather your data for a particular aspect of the game. Where Dom2 differs is the impact and implementation of all the different aspects and their effect on your Empire.

(B) It is difficult to keep track of enemy movement and aggression between turns since all you see is a snapshot of before and after.

This can be the case if you base it only off of the Messages viewed at the beginning of the turn. Which I admit are slightly counter-intuitive.

Another visual aid is the fact that on the Strategic Map any province that has had a battle has a crossed sword icon on it (Turn on the Filter with 7 if not visible). This for me provides a better mental image of what happened in what context (I can find routing troops easier, check effects of Scales and their impact on the battle, see if there are reinforcements from me/enemy nearby, etc)

So if I buy the game will I discover ways to work around my perceived problem with the game or will it become a coaster along side my Space Empires IV coaster?

I wouldn't want to pick IW and Shrapnel's pockets by saying "Don't because you don't like it" but if you don't enjoy a game it has no purpose, so there would be no reason for you to play it if you have played the Demo and it has not appealed to you based on your initial impressions.

My standing advice is, play the Demo again, and again, and again. Play it with 1 AI on Easy on Aran and try things out, do things that are dumb or crazy. Cast spells you have no idea what they are going to do. Set up classic or weird formations of troops and orders.

If you like what you can do and how you can do it, you will like the game. If it seems like one big confusing, hairy mess but you can't seem to stop playing it, you'll like the game . If you can't handle the UI or the way information is detailed and can't get past it, you more than likely will not enjoy the game and noone here would want you to spend your hard earned money on something you wouldn't like.

[Johan K]

Of course you should buy this game! On the odd chance that you don't like it, please note that the CD has a pretty blue picture and should compliment your Space Empires coaster just fine.

/Johan K
Taking a stab at customer support

Not to mention that the manual can be used as a form of Avant Garde Art. Notice how the eyes follow you? Notice how the eyes follow?!

Creepy.

[Fyron]

How is the interface in SE4 bad? It provides all of the data you need, in appropriate windows. So does Dominions. So does Civ II, SMAC, etc.

Also, there is the "next ship available" button and "next fleet available" button that makes it a snap to find any and all ships that do not have orders, and then cycle through all fleets, respectively. Just like in any of those games you mentioned, other than Dominions, in fact. Sure, you have to click on other systems on the galaxy map to see other portions of your empire, but how is that really any different than clicking on different portions of the minimaps in Civ, SMAC, etc.?

It is impossible to assess how well you are doing in every aspect fo the game from just one window. It requires several different windows to give the information on different areas. This is exactly like in Civ, SMAC, etc., where you have to glance at a bunch of different windows to see how you are doing overall. And there is always the score window...

I think you missed the movement replay log buttons. They will show you all movement that occured in a particular system. There is also a button to show the movement of all ships. You certainly get a lot more than just a snap shot.

I have played SE4, and it, IMO, does not compare to Civ or SMAC.

That is odd, since it has more depth than either of those games.

[ February 13, 2004, 04:35: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Argitoth]

I baught SE4 but I never played it.

I really want to actually, I just can't pull myself away from Dominions 2! LOL

[PvK]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
...
Also, there is the "next ship available" button and "next fleet available" button that makes it a snap to find any and all ships that do not have orders, and then cycle through all fleets, respectively. Just like in any of those games you mentioned, other than Dominions, in fact. ...

Actually, Dominions II has the same feature. Press "n" to go to the next leader without orders.

PvK

[Nethog]

Thanks for all of your feedback - there were some very good tips and I want to spend some time playing the D2 demo this weekend to try them out, and come up with a decision whether to buy the game or not. Here's my response to everyone's commments:

licker wrote:
There is also alot of information contained on the main screen once you learn what the filters do. F1 is a great screen to help you manage your provinces and even commanders

Yes I agree F1 is very, very useful. I wonder why it wasn't mentioned in the walk-through?

Arryn wrote:
What troubles me about your posting is that your primary evaluation of the game is how good it's histographs are and not about whether the AI is good, or the gameplay, or the depth of the strategies that you can play with, or the variety of units, equipment, and magic.

Please don't misintrepret my particular percieved issue with D2's UI as the only thing that is important to me - AI/gameplay/strategies/etc are all very important, and I have already got a sense that D2 is a shining example of an excellent strategy game. Space Empires IV also has excellent AI/gameplay/strategies/etc but due to the UI flaws I pointed out in my original post, I just found it too tedious to play.

Arryn wrote:
The classics are more polished, but that's only to be expected given the size and budgets of the companies that made them.

Agreed. All I would like to see is a little more static and dynamic graphical feedback on the world map to avoid having continually open sub-windows or right-click on each province every turn.

Gandalf Parker wrote:
Well if the game does become a coaster for you this will be the first time Ive heard of it for the reasons you give. Usually its not being able to get past the learning curve. Or a pre-disposition to only playing games with super pretty graphics.

Well in the case of Space Empires IV, I made a substantial effort to learn the game, its strategies, but I just found that without the visual feedback I just found it too tedious, kind of like "playing a spreadsheet".

PvK wrote:
... though I know some people wish the interface were improved in various ways.

I agree. I would like to see each indivdual leader shown on the world map with their individual army size, as well as friendly and especially enemy army movement when processing a turn. Of course there would be restrictions on which enemy army movements you would see.

Zen wrote:
With respect to (A), my personal opinion is that you should not be able to divine your strategic status in one standing analytical report. It comes from the fact that the amount of information and it's impact is easier to define and use for me personally if it is funneled into sectional data (Research, Income, etc).

I generally agree with this, however the more I think about it the more I think that what I really think is missing is the display of individual commanders and their specfic army sizes on the world map. By the way, I don't recall seeing ANY indication on the world map that a province contains one of your scouts does it?

Zen wrote:
Also a /sword/ icon next to a province name indicates troops present (when next to a Commander, troops under his command). This allows an easier access to independant recruitment and supplementation to your armies. It also provides you with Supplies and Supplies Used.

Ahh excellent tip , thanks Zen.

Johan K wrote:
Of course you should buy this game! On the odd chance that you don't like it, please note that the CD has a pretty blue picture and should compliment your Space Empires coaster just fine.

Amazing, I'll order my copy of D2 right away!!

Imperator Fyron wrote:

How is the interface in SE4 bad? ...

Hey there are good things about the SEIV interface as well, again I just think it should be easier to visually assess your strength on the strategic map and see movement between turns. Your point about replaying system movement isn't quite what I was thinking of - who would want do this for 20+ systems each turn? Why not just have an option to display the movement of fleets/ships in all systems during turn processing?

PvK wrote:
Actually, Dominions II has the same feature. Press "n" to go to the next leader without orders

Great tip - thanks!
-----

I guess all my years of playing strategy board games (including hex-based war games with cardboard counters) and the years of playing Civ based computer games has made me "expect" to see units/armies on a strategic map, as well as seeing movement between hexes/squares/regions while you are playing. Without these two elements it feels to me like you are watching cells in a spreadsheet update and detracts from the enjoyment of the game. Am I the ONLY one who thinks this way or are there others?

To summarize, I would like a better graphical representation of individual leaders and army strength on the world map, and see leader/army movement during turn processing. Of course there would have to restrictions on specifically which enemy movement you see. Does anyone know if Ilwinter is good at accepting enhancement requests and actually delivering some of them with updates (Aaron WAS very good at this with Space Emipires)?