Golden Era Discussion

[Daynarr]

Where does Arco have Stealth Troops? They have stealth commanders, but I don't quite see their stealth troops. Or do you not consider stealth Vans and Valks to be any sort of advantage.

You said stealth OPTION not troops and stealth commander that diminishes your domain is quite an option - even more so since a single commander is harder to spot than stealth army.

The option to utilize it is there. I said minor ability, there are instances where if you use scouts to blood hunt, you could take advantage of blood. Whereas Arco doesn't have the option. It's about versatility for a situation.

The reason why scouts can be used is because they are cheap and can be equipped with cheap items. You don't use 380 gold commanders to get same results. Well maybe YOU do.

Well they have the option at least. GE doesn't have the option unless they use Indeps. And Einherese are very nice.

GE doesn’t have HI???? They have BETTER protected HI and can use same quality HI from independents, which gives them 2 options as I see. Vanheim are pretty much stuck with one type and that type is barely HI considering that something below 15 protection would be Medium infantry.

There is a commander that lets all your units fly even if they don't? Which one is that? Because Sailing allows that, which while not on the same level as a SINGLE flying commander, Valkaries fly and if you equip a commander with a flying item, are just as good as the inherently flying commander. Considering that you can't bless your Wind Riders with the Wind Rider Commander, but have to use a Flying Priestess, I consider them on equal footing except that Van can sail if the opportunity presents itself.

This 'point' is the reason I still reply to this discussion. First of all GE has 2 commanders that can fly so why would they ground commander??? Items that you can build quickly or cheap let your commander alone or just a small group of troops fly with them and there is only one unique item that allows you to fly your entire army with them. I need only 1 flying item to bring my priestess with them and it can be made quick and cheap enough (at least for Arco). There is a BUNCH of cheap items that allow you to increase a number of units you can command if you really need to.

I can't believe that someone would even argue that sailing could be EQUAL to flying. Think about it, that isn't a matter of opinion or experience but single fact that you can move 3 territories on map ANYWHERE and GE has means to do so while sailing allows you to cross ONLY 1 sea territory. Geez.

Yes the Priestesses and the ability to heal any affliction, disease and having someone who can cast protection is something that Van does not have access too. But it hardly catapults it ahead of a Van nation with 3 Productivity, 3 Order.

Vans don't NEED 3 productivity for anything else then gold because their units cost much more gold then resources (with the exception of their "HI"). Turmoil scale 1 is not so much of a disadvantage and you can beef up other scales with spare design points or use high admin castle. You are making it sound like you MUST have 3 in production in order to win a game. Priestess is much more worth it in my experience, but as you said it, you are entitled to your own opinion.

Well it's hardly a surprise that you feel that way as you more than likely said you liked the current system or suggested it when you were beta testing it. However others are entitiled to see flaws in your argument. Which I do.

You don't have to agree with me bout you do have to respect other peoples opinion as well and, beta tester or not, am entitled to one as well. And just like you may see flaws in my argument I can see flaws in yours so that is why I said to "agree to disagree" and don't see a point why you drag this as dead cat around.

The Wind Rider would be no more abusive if he cost 100Gold or 110 Gold. It's not as if suddenly that extra 1 for every 4 Wind Riders is going to throw balance completely out of the window.

Here you say that change in gold cost for Wind Rider is so small that it wont change balance. Then why should there BE a change in cost?

But seeing as you can't see the possibility then there is no reason to discuss it further.

On that I agree.

Edit: Typos.

[ February 17, 2004, 19:14: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

[IKerensky]

Just my uninformed 2cents.

Valkyries mmake Pegasus rider look overpriced.... Well if they meet in battle on a 1 to 1 basis , who will win ? here I bet for the pegasus higu protection and lance.

If they meet with a budget of 1000 gold who will win ? is it unbalanced ?

Guess the answer about the price question lie in here.

About Chariot, will bow mixed with standard fire during the hold and attack sequence ?

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
And just like you may see flaws in my argument I can see flaws in yours so that is why I said to "agree to disagree" and don't see a point why you drag this as dead cat around.

quote:

---

But seeing as you can't see the possibility then there is no reason to discuss it further.

On that i agree.

---

The "discussion" has devolved to thinly (or not so thinly)-veiled mutual insults, and each of you continues to try to have the final word. Not very mature.

Both of you have some valid points. Please leave it at that and do the rest of us the favor of not trying to beat the other over the head with them.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Daynarr:
YOu sadi stealth OPTION not troops and stealth commander that dinisihes your domain is quite an option. Even more so since a single commander is harder to spot than stealth army.

I have a hard time believing that you can easily spot Van's or Valks sneaking or hiding. But your experience my differ. Stealth Troops are a very real backdoor threat, but maybe not in your playstyle.

The reason why scouts can be used is because they are cheap and can be equipped with cheap weapons. You don't use 380 hold commander to get same results. Well maybe YOU do.

Since when do you have to use a Vanderott? But as is obvious, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, because it does, it just has a minor application.

GE doesnt have HI???? They have BETTER protected HI and can use same quality HI from independents which gives them 2 options as I see. Vanheim are pretty much stuck with one type and that type is barely HI considerying that something below 15 protection would be Medium infantry.

This doesn't seem to be impacted by Forced Sloth, though?

I can't belive that someone would even argue that sailing can be EQUAL to flying. Think about it, that isn't a matter of oppinion or experience but single fact that you can move 3 territores on map ANYWHERE and GE has means to do so while sailing allows you to cross ONLY 1 sea territory. Geez.

I never said it was equal to flying, only that Sailing was a benefit for Vanheim. It was you who said Flying was better than Sailing, as if it was the discovery of the light bulb. It only allows you to cross 1 Sea Province, but that can have an impact in game, and you are not required to have all your units have the ability only the commander. And it still doesn't change the fact that you have to use a Priestess to fly if you want to bless your troops.

Vans don't NEED 3 productivity for anything else then gold because their units cost much more gold then resources (with the exeption of their "HI"). Turmoil scale 1 is not so much of a dissadvantage
and you can beef up other scales with spare design points or use high admin castle. You are making it sound like you MUST have 3 in production in order to win a game. Priestess is much more worth it in my experience, but as you said it, you are entitled to your own oppinion.

I agree the Vans don't need the productivity, but the Nation uses Productivity. Which not only includes Resource bonuses, but also gold. Sloth 1 (Not Turmoil, typo) allows you those design choices because of points, but it also limits the production of your nation. I agree that Priestesses are much more worth it than most other units. But it's not just the Priestess that makes Arco powerful, it's the combination of the Priestess and Mystics.

You don't have to agree with me bout you do have to respect other peoples oppinion as well and, beta tester or not, am entitled to one as well. And just like you may see flaws in my argument I can see flaws in yours so that is why I said to "agree to disagree" and don't see a point why you drag this as dead cat around.

Because the only way to show stubborn people things in a different light is to argue with their points. Otherwise we'd have a game regulated to playing just Pythium.

Here you say that change in gold cost for Wind Rider is so small that it wont change balance. Then why should there BE a change in cost?

Because of the game mechanic of coming up with the gold up front for purchasing. If you could put Wind Riders on "Layaway" or even have a 1 turn hold on resources or gold, the situation would be different. But as it is now, the way the buying of troops is implemented, the gold cost in terms of 'a big chunk of change' is a factor. Making it 100g would be less of a bite and more use for a bless strategy. As of right now there are very few reasons to even play a Bless strategy because of the limitation of Pretenders, limitation of Dominion, limitation of scales, and limitations of good things to bless.

On that i agree.

Unfortunately I must drag the dead cat around and yank on it's tail

Originally posted by IKerensky:
Just my uninformed 2cents.

Valkyries mmake Pegasus rider look overpriced.... Well if they meet in battle on a 1 to 1 basis , who will win ? here I bet for the pegasus higu protection and lance.

The lance is usually wasted on the mirror image. on 1 on 1, I believe the Pegasus does 99% of the time, unless they get unlucky on their attack rolls.

If they meet with a budget of 1000 gold who will win ? is it unbalanced ?

The Valkyries win every time, defending or attacking. But this is hardly representative of the Peggy's strength, which is quick routing. On units with less morale it has a greater impact.

About Chariot, will bow mixed with standard fire during the hold and attack sequence ?

If they are mixed with units that have a missle weapon. Like PetLasts. This is a good way to increase the morale of the chariots by squad size since you can have masses of PetLasts.

[Daynarr]

I have a hard time believing that you can easily spot Van's or Valks sneaking or hiding. But your experience my differ. Stealth Troops are a very real backdoor threat, but maybe not in your playstyle.

Glamour ability works best when moving in friendly provinces and yes, they are different.

This doesn't seem to be impacted by Forced Sloth, though?

Not nearly as you seem to imply. Note that if I want to build infantry units like Vans, I will build them in several provinces at once and still be able to use resources from my castles to build different units.

I never said it was equal to flying, only that Sailing was a benefit for Vanheim. It was you who said Flying was better than Sailing, as if it was the discovery of the light bulb. It only allows you to cross 1 Sea Province, but that can have an impact in game, and you are not required to have all your units have the ability only the commander. And it still doesn't change the fact that you have to use a Priestess to fly if you want to bless your troops.

Considering that you can't bless your Wind Riders with the Wind Rider Commander, but have to use a Flying Priestess, I consider them on equal footing except that Van can sail if the opportunity presents itself.

Yes you did. You don't need to bless your troops to make flying better. I'll try to ignore the rest of insulting comment.

Because the only way to show stubborn people things in a different light is to argue with their points. Otherwise we'd have a game regulated to playing just Pythium.

Seems that calling names has kicked in. Stubborn person is the one that would stand by its opinion even if there are no arguments to back it up. Calling someone stubborn because he doesn't agree with your point of view is rude if nothing else and shows lack of arguments in other areas. I have tried to discuss this in civilized and argumentative manner and perceive this as a spit in my face. I will not sink to this level of calling names so this is where this discussion will end.

Originally posted by Daynarr:
Glamour ability works best when moving in friendly provinces and yes, they are different.

And the ... Stealthy +25 ?

Yes you did. You don't need to bless your troops to make flying better. I'll try to ignore the rest of insulting comment.

No, maybe that could be percieved in a different language, but if you choose not to bless your troops you don't have to make any adjustments (meaning get a flying blesser). Though I see this as counterproductive, 5 Air Gems to make a commander flying is hardly overwhelming, especially when Vanheim has an initial air gem income.

Seems that calling names has kicked in. Stubborn person is the one that would stand by its opinion even if there are no arguments to back it up. Calling someone stubborn because he doesn't agree with your point of view is rude if nothing else and shows lack of arguments in other areas. I have tried to discuss this in civilized and argumentative manner and perceive this as a spit in my face. I will not sink to this level of calling names so this is where this discussion will end.

I wasn't calling you stubborn, but as a general statement. If I intended to insult you I would have done so as you did. If you feel that arguing balance and someone standing their ground based on whatever argument is presented (whatever the issue may be) and your stance reminds someone of being stubborn is an insult, I doubt anyone can argue with you at all without you feeling as a spit in your face. Unless of course you stop debating when you can't win and never have to come to a stalemate.

If it's not apparent, I do respect your views and have tried to see them in your light, but I cannot agree with all your points which is obvious. What is rude is assuming that your experience overrides any and all experiences of all others to the point where you can't have a discussion or argument about it, because you feel any counterpoint affects you personally since you worked closely on the project or aspect of the project.

That would be like me saying it's an insult to me for arguing my personal like for America with a French individual who did not feel the same way and him calling me stubborn because I don't see his PoV. I personally don't consider that an insult, I consider it a firm stance based on my own opinions and PoV.

Not everyone is trying to beat your baby when they don't agree with it.

[ February 17, 2004, 20:49: Message edited by: Zen ]