Caelum questions, both themes.

Originally posted by Tuna-Fish:
If one of your (or his/hers/its) commanders carries a staff of storms, there will be a storm.
Storm has 5 effects:
1. it halves all precision scores (air magic bonus is given afterwards, as is the bonuses given by eagle eyes and wind guide)
2. of all fired (ordinary) missiles, 50% are discarded on flight.
3. fire magic is harded to cast

Harder to cast = Double Fatigue

4. normal flight is not possible.
5. Casting of storm power is allowed (very easy air spell that gives +1 in air magic for duration of battle)
And how exactly would enemy having staff of storms hurt? I really can't figure out why.

It could hurt if you had very little forces that could fight in a storm and primarily archers (Caelum archers are just as bad in storms as the rest).

Wrathful Skies + Storm is always bad unless you have Thunder Ward.

Certain summoned monsters and items give increased power during a storm.

If you don't plan on being a storm and any one of those things is counter to what your army is composed of, it can be bad for you if they have a storm.

[Chazar]

• Thanks for the advice on storms!
  Is it generally speaking a necessity to go for construction with Caelum early on? So far I always did, but not that extensive, alteration/evocation are useful. But then again, these owl-quills might make it up again then, as I dont have too many mages around in battle in the beginning anyway...
  

• Originally posted by Norfleet:
  If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item.

  Ahem, I agreed with you there before, but then considering again, a high seraph can forge a "Ring of Frost" already on the second turn (provided that you dont use the Raptor theme). So the only drawback here is the lost misc-item slot, or did I miss something else? (I'm thinking about trading the blue dragon against a virtue pretender, among other changes...)

• Posted by fahdiz: I don't think they're supposed to be necessarily evil as much as they are desperate and rebellious.

  Well, yes, but death/earth magic and no seraphines looks not that nice to me. I would just like to have a fallen-angel theme for caelum, but I'm not sure if it adds well to the other nations.
  
  The raptor theme is just not appealing to me, but maybe shifting it more into rebellious-religious fanatics by adding more sacred troops would be real tempting choice as well, as we said here before...

[ March 04, 2004, 22:57: Message edited by: Chazar ]

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Chazar:

quote:

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Posted by fahdiz: I don't think they're supposed to be necessarily evil as much as they are desperate and rebellious.

Well, yes, but death/earth magic and no seraphines looks not that nice to me. I would just like to have a fallen-angel theme for caelum, but I'm not sure if it adds well to the other nations.

The raptor theme is just not appealing to me, but maybe shifting it more into rebellious-religious fanatics by adding more sacred troops would be real tempting choice as well, as we said here before...

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Well, I didn't say they were nice, just not necessarily evil. "Desperately fanatic" and "embittered by being squeezed out of Caelian society for centuries" is definitely more how I saw it from reading the flavor text.

I'm becoming more and more fond of the sacred Raven Guard/sacred Wingless idea for Return of the Raptors. But I would be interested to see the opinions of the experts of the list - do you think such a change would present balance problems, or do you think there is a place for a "new RotR"? And do these changes even sound good or appropriate to you?

[ March 04, 2004, 23:11: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

If I had to do what I say (Which is of course the hardest way to do it I'd more than likely make RotR a complete overhaul.

Change the Preference to Cold 1 or None (Depending on the points).

Remove Wingless, Remove Mammoths, Remove Spire Horn Warriors (Replaced with Raptors), Make Raven Guard Sacred. New unit Gryphon. Move one Air to Random on the Harab Elder and give him Holy 3. Starting Spell = Blight.

That would play much differently. With the removal of Cold preference but keeping the units Cold Resistance, you could take Cold if you wish; but you lose the 'free points' and makes you play quite a bit differently.

Those are just some things I was thinking for my own modifications; but hardly a general consensus.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Chazar:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item.

Ahem, I agreed with you there before, but then considering again, a high seraph can forge a "Ring of Frost" already on the second turn (provided that you dont use the Raptor theme). So the only drawback here is the lost misc-item slot, or did I miss something else?

---

Well, it *IS* the loss of your ONLY misc slot. There are other alternatives, though. And my intent wasn't to say that you SHOULDN'T use the Nataraja because of this, so much that you should be aware of the effect: It's particularly pronounced on the Nataraja, since he already comes with a rather poor base fatigue rating of 3. +2 for severe cold will turn it into an absolutely awful 5, so nose-down-in-the-dirt is very likely occurrence unless this is taken into account. The Virtue will be similarly affected, but her lighter base encumberance of 1 will mean that even a severe-cold penalized virtue will still have the endurance of an unaffected Nataraja, and she has two misc slots. The Blue Dragon isn't affected, but his encumberance is pretty bad anyway.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Zen:
If I had to do what I say (Which is of course the hardest way to do it I'd more than likely make RotR a complete overhaul.

Change the Preference to Cold 1 or None (Depending on the points).

Remove Wingless, Remove Mammoths, Remove Spire Horn Warriors (Replaced with Raptors), Make Raven Guard Sacred. New unit Gryphon. Move one Air to Random on the Harab Elder and give him Holy 3. Starting Spell = Blight.

That would play much differently. With the removal of Cold preference but keeping the units Cold Resistance, you could take Cold if you wish; but you lose the 'free points' and makes you play quite a bit differently.

Those are just some things I was thinking for my own modifications; but hardly a general consensus.

Would you give them Gryphon Riders like the Garnet Amazons have, or would it be just a riderless Gryphon with slightly different stats (like cold resistance, for one)?

Effectively this would turn RotR into a "groundless" nation, as Wingless + Mammoth is basically all Caelum has as far as ground troops, and RotR doesn't even get Temple Guards. Is it your intent that RotR *must* rely on independents and summons for ground forces? This would make early expansion, especially against strong indies, very difficult.

Certainly mages with Death (Harabs) give you quick and easy battlefield ground troops - but they don't pack the punch of Mammoths in any way, shape or form. Would the Gryphon replace the functionality of the Mammoth, in your mind?

A base Gryphon. Not a rider. He is supposed to replace the Mammoth, similiar cost

code:

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125 Gold, XX Resources



Size 4

Hp  48   Str 21

Pro 10   Att 13

Mor 10   Def 13

MR  10   Pre 5

Enc 4    Mv 2/16



Cold Resistance 100

Animal

Flying



Claw, Bite

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It would have to be balanced of course. But something that takes the place of a semi-decent unit. Could even lower the Morale more if it needed in order to simulate the low morale of the Mammoth, but flying units generally have a much greater chance to rout regardless. Have him eat horses would be fine too, +5 Supply Usage

[ March 05, 2004, 01:21: Message edited by: Zen ]