Caelum questions, both themes.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I haven't noticed any particularly extreme tendency of fliers to rout. It's far worse with Jotuns, they rout really easily due to a combination of all of the above.

I very rarely see my Jotuns rout. Even their militia has 11 morale, and the other units all have at least that much, most have more. That combined with their high HP and extreme ease of routing the *enemy* by causing massive casualties means they rarely retreat, in my experience.

[Norfleet]

Then why is it that Jotun militia, especially, is widely reputed for its cowardice?

I'm sure Arryn has run into this at some point before: Jotun militia, I've found, is notorious for its tendency to break and run from battles that it could have otherwise won. Jotuns generally are more susceptible to morale failure, despite their individually higher morale, for several reasons:

#1: Their high hitpoints mean that they frequently survive hits, which force a morale check for being injured.
#2: Their higher cost means you'll have less of them in the squad, so they don't have the same level of large-squad buffering.
#3: Their large size means that relatively few Jotuns will form a line compared to the masses of smaller units that swarm you. A single Jotun will end up fighting at least 3 humans.
#4: Last but not least, large units running in terror are more noticeable. It's easier to gain a reputation for cowardice when all eyes are on you as you bravely run away. And when they run, they take a larger amount of fighting power with them.

So, as a general rule, given units of equal morale, say, a Jotun with morale 11, and humans with morale 11, the Jotuns are more likely to cut and run.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Then why is it that Jotun militia, especially, is widely reputed for its cowardice?

About all I hear about Jotun militia is that they have the best militia in the game. EDIT: And I can't believe you'd say they have a reputation for cowardice when compared to, say, Machaka or C'tis, whose militia have a reputation for running away before the fight even starts sometimes

I'm sure Arryn has run into this at some point before: Jotun militia, I've found, is notorious for its tendency to break and run from battles that it could have otherwise won.

Jotunheim is my second favorite nation. I play it A LOT. It's much more common to see my 20 PD beat 60-80 attackers than it is to see them run from them (Barring fear units/spells, of course, or SC's etc that you can't depend on non-scripted solutions for).

#1: Their high hitpoints mean that they frequently survive hits, which force a morale check for being injured.

Ah, I see, so dieing is preferable to living because it doesn't force a morale check. Gotcha.

#2: Their higher cost means you'll have less of them in the squad, so they don't have the same level of large-squad buffering.

And their higher HP and STR means they kill more of the enemy than the enemy can kill of them. Enemies break VERY quickly when being faced with giants.

#3: Their large size means that relatively few Jotuns will form a line compared to the masses of smaller units that swarm you. A single Jotun will end up fighting at least 3 humans.

Which has nothing to do with morale.

#4: Last but not least, large units running in terror are more noticeable. It's easier to gain a reputation for cowardice when all eyes are on you as you bravely run away. And when they run, they take a larger amount of fighting power with them.

I'll give you that point.

So, as a general rule, given units of equal morale, say, a Jotun with morale 11, and humans with morale 11, the Jotuns are more likely to cut and run.

Not this one though. A human with morale 11 is EXACTLY as likely to run as a giant with morale 11. The giant, however, will do more damage and Last longer in a fight.

[ March 05, 2004, 07:10: Message edited by: Zurai ]

Originally posted by Zurai:


#3: Their large size means that relatively few Jotuns will form a line compared to the masses of smaller units that swarm you. A single Jotun will end up fighting at least 3 humans.

Which has nothing to do with morale.

It does have something to do with morale. Since you force a morale check every time you are attacked. A square can only have up to 6 in size in it. Each attack lowers defense by 1, so there is a greater chance of an attack going through. Also each single large unit has more morale checks since more units can attack it per square. Though the primary reason that Giants seem to have poor morale (to the uninitiated) is because of their lower than average squad size which would give them a lower base morale than a similiar group of human milita (with much less survivability).

And in response to Fliers Routing, they rout much more not because of any inherent 'ability' but because of their deployment (when attacking they move in a circle around an area) which allows each and every unit to attack and be attacked (as opposed to front lines clashing). With the fragility of the units, lower average armor (even with Iceclad/SGuard) they tend to rout easier than other units of the same variety.

This is why losing a Holy3 priest by RotR is even more annoying.

[ March 05, 2004, 07:28: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Liadran]

Seems that is saying their word agaist Raptors here. Then I'll be the one to say a word for them.

Lets first see what changes from base Caelum in RotR.

Mages:
Loses the best mage in game. Seraph costs more and is capital only. Raptors get Harab Seraph and Harab Elder.
Harab Seraph
Costs only 90 gold (10 gold less than base Caelum Seraph), 1 in earth, death and air
Harab Elder
Costs 270 gold (compared to 175 of base Caelum), but is sacred (so has much lower upkeep than base Caelum HS). Gets 3 Air, 2 death and 1 earth and 2 holy. No randoms hurts a bit. Capital only unit.

In the end Raptors lose much in water, some in air, much in randoms but they gain much in death and earth. It's must to learn how to use those magics effectively with air and their troops to compete.

Priests:
Raptors loses Seraphim (a very good priest as pointed) and gets 2 holy to their Elder. Lose much precious holy 3. Still they have access to Seraphim in PD (makes sense as Raptors are only the ruling society).

Troops:
Lose the (precious to many) only sacred unit Temple Guard. Get Raptor and the most amazing Ravens Guard. For Raptor strategies this is a very good thing. Ravens Guard used right (and Raptors can do it) is just amazing. They have the attack punch almost all of the Caelum troops miss.

Cold:
They lose some of the cold benefits.

Most of the main changes are here.


Thematically Raptors are a good theme in my opinion. Raptors coming back to rule the society through their magics (mainly death and earth here). They haven't got the cold resistance. But the people of Caelum do have it still. That's why changing the cold preference to 0 or 1 is not a good idea. Most of the people living in Caelum still prefer it and should have thier best income in cold +3. It would ruin the theme to lower it as their people still like it.


About strategies:

Raptors are not your HI country. If you prefer HI in every one of your strategies, then Raptors are not the country for you. For earlier expansion Raptors do have other keys than Mammoth/Wingless strategy. Using low level spells and archers backed up by h seraph and h elder or 2-3 h seraphs can take care of most of the independents (even knights and HI easily). Mammoth is expensive and that's why have high upkeep also. Mages can be recruited one / turn, so it's slower method, but high cost of mammoths makes that also slow.

Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme and have to rely much on their magic (and summons also). Also pretender choice is narrower than with base Caelum. You need to make sure that you can get something to raise your earth magic to get needed items and spells.

In the essence to get the best out of Raptors one can't just go with normal Caelum strategies. Getting the best out of earth and death is very important and using Raven's Guard and summons (mostly different than base Caelum) effectively.


About the changes proposed here:

Making Raven's Guard a sacred unit is ok but not necessary. I don't see Raptors as the sacred theme. They're fallen and not that sacred to me. Wingless sacred, hopely never.

Holy 3 to harab elder. This is more a death nation than a holy nation. Holy 3 is very good, but I wouldn't give it to Raptors. It would also make H Elder to cost more, which is not a good idea for Raptors. Death and summon approach makes morele a bit lesser problem so one can go with only holy 2.

One air to random with H Elder is ok. But can very well go without. That random mostly makes them more powerfull.

Starting spell can be changed, no problem. But changing it to blight or call of the wind would make Raptors weaker. Thematically many spells are good. Wind Guide is just as ok.

Removing old units (other than Temple Guard) is not thematically a good idea. Doesn't fit the theme that well to lose units that still exist in your society. Othervise wouldn't care that much to lose Spirehorns to Raptors. Mammuth and Wingless or Gryphon idead are also ok. I don't use Mammoth that much with Raptors (as it's not that needed). Losing Mammoth might make people think about other strategies. Mostly the theme should be kept in mind in my opinion (and it's also a good one).

Basically I like Raptors just the way they are, but it seems that most of the other people don't like them this way. Both Caelum themes are one my favourite themes in dom2. I'm willing to defend Raptors in a discussion here. I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.

Ask (or point out) what you want and I'll try to answer back as well as possible. Got a bit long this one.

[Vodalian]

What do you think, should Return of the raptors be a seraph- based society with a raptor ruling class ( as it is now ) or an entirely raptor-based society? I think the latter is a better idea, and would thematically result in a clearer distinction between base and Rotr Caelum.

[Liadran]

Thematically I like the way it is. Raptor ruling class and old prophecies and so on sound very nice. The distiction is quite enough at the moment (propably most of you disagree with me). Usable strategies differ well enough.