Caelum questions, both themes.

[Vodalian]

What do you think, should Return of the raptors be a seraph- based society with a raptor ruling class ( as it is now ) or an entirely raptor-based society? I think the latter is a better idea, and would thematically result in a clearer distinction between base and Rotr Caelum.

[Liadran]

Thematically I like the way it is. Raptor ruling class and old prophecies and so on sound very nice. The distiction is quite enough at the moment (propably most of you disagree with me). Usable strategies differ well enough.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Liadran:
[QB]
Harab Seraph
Costs only 90 gold (10 gold less than base Caelum Seraph), 1 in earth, death and air

Note that the only useful skill on the unit there is the 1 air for orb lightning. Everything else has no useful rituals, and giving a mage ironskin isn't that impressive.

Harab Elder
Costs 270 gold (compared to 175 of base Caelum), but is sacred (so has much lower upkeep than base Caelum HS). Gets 3 Air, 2 death and 1 earth and 2 holy. No randoms hurts a bit. Capital only unit.

It actually doesn't have much lower upkeep, High eraphs are 11.7, Harab Elders are 9 per turn. The 1 earth is just as useless here as on the Harab Seraph.

Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme and have to rely much on their magic (and summons also).

I doubt this. High seraphs are hard to beat for research.

Basically I like Raptors just the way they are, but it seems that most of the other people don't like them this way. Both Caelum themes are one my favourite themes in dom2. I'm willing to defend Raptors in a discussion here. I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.

I _really_ doubt that RotR is anywhere near as effective as base Caelum. They have less magical versatility with no random picks, less research ability with harab seraphs having the same research ability as default Seraphs and only costing 10 less, and far more expensive mages. A mage that costs less than 200 can be bought one per turn from about turn 3 or 4 onwards. One that costs 270 is going to be every other turn at most. You also have far, far fewer of the harab elders than the high seraphs, since you can't build them at every fortress. Their magic skills also have little synergy. The only notable death/air skills are summon valkyries and death wind, both of which are quite high level. That plus the fact that a mage can only cast one spell at a time, no matter what skills they have, severely weakens them.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Note that the only useful skill on the unit there is the 1 air for orb lightning. Everything else has no useful rituals, and giving a mage ironskin isn't that impressive.

Ironskin is still good to have. You'll understand that the day someone casts Rain of Stones on your Seraph-heavy army.

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Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme

I doubt this. High seraphs are hard to beat for research.

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But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph and give 2 more RPs with a flat magic scale. This edge gets even sharper with a +magic scale and when you factor in experience.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Ironskin is still good to have. You'll understand that the day someone casts Rain of Stones on your Seraph-heavy army.

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Only Vanheim, Arco, and Pythium if they get lucky, can reliably expect to be able to cast rain of stones, so you'll have to change your tactics for them. The weightless armors and rainbow armor and so on should be able to help a great deal there. Losing quickness and air 2 to gain ironskin for a few rare cases isn't that much of a deal. Especially when those seraphs will have likely cast mistform. Then there's also always murdering winter if we are talking about level 7 spells.

[qb]But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph and give 2 more RPs with a flat magic scale. This edge gets even sharper with a +magic scale and when you factor in experience.

Those two harab seraphs are only good for research though, while the high seraph that you bought for the same price can also cast spring hawks, forge the air boosters and staff of storms, cast wrathful skies, etc. Plus, High seraphs are available in large numbers, unlike Harab Elders.

[Chazar]

Originally posted by Liadran:
Seems that is saying their word agaist Raptors here. Then I'll be the one to say a word for them.

Cool, now this makes things interesting...

I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.

Well, if you could play them in the same way, then it would be boring. I think a theme should always require a change in your strategies...

That said, I do not understand how the raptors manage so well with Cold 3, as the raptor-troops are not cold resistant, or is the encumbrance factor only important for mages and commanders?

So this forces you to drag your dominion behind rather than pushing it, doesnt it?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Only Vanheim, Arco, and Pythium if they get lucky, can reliably expect to be able to cast rain of stones, so you'll have to change your tactics for them.

Rain of Stones is an extreme exemple, there are several other ways to inflict hideous losses to a bunch of unprotected mages who would survive with just Ironskin.

The weightless armors and rainbow armor and so on should be able to help a great deal there.

That's an expensive way to protect a horde of 90 gp mages.

Losing quickness and air 2 to gain ironskin for a few rare cases isn't that much of a deal.

On that I agree. Just wanted to point out that Ironskin is still far from useless. 90 gp mages are expendable if need be, put a dozen close to the front line and try (Ironskin)(Summ. Storm Power)(Mistform)(Mirror Image)(Resist Lightning)(cast spells) someday, works wonders if you can get the timing right so the enemy troops close on your mages as soon as they've finished casting their buffs.

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But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph...

Those two harab seraphs are only good for research though

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That's another matter. The point was : "Raptors are a bit faster researchers", and you followed with "I doubt this".