Caelum questions, both themes.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Ironskin is still good to have. You'll understand that the day someone casts Rain of Stones on your Seraph-heavy army.

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Only Vanheim, Arco, and Pythium if they get lucky, can reliably expect to be able to cast rain of stones, so you'll have to change your tactics for them. The weightless armors and rainbow armor and so on should be able to help a great deal there. Losing quickness and air 2 to gain ironskin for a few rare cases isn't that much of a deal. Especially when those seraphs will have likely cast mistform. Then there's also always murdering winter if we are talking about level 7 spells.

[qb]But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph and give 2 more RPs with a flat magic scale. This edge gets even sharper with a +magic scale and when you factor in experience.

Those two harab seraphs are only good for research though, while the high seraph that you bought for the same price can also cast spring hawks, forge the air boosters and staff of storms, cast wrathful skies, etc. Plus, High seraphs are available in large numbers, unlike Harab Elders.

[Chazar]

Originally posted by Liadran:
Seems that is saying their word agaist Raptors here. Then I'll be the one to say a word for them.

Cool, now this makes things interesting...

I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.

Well, if you could play them in the same way, then it would be boring. I think a theme should always require a change in your strategies...

That said, I do not understand how the raptors manage so well with Cold 3, as the raptor-troops are not cold resistant, or is the encumbrance factor only important for mages and commanders?

So this forces you to drag your dominion behind rather than pushing it, doesnt it?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Only Vanheim, Arco, and Pythium if they get lucky, can reliably expect to be able to cast rain of stones, so you'll have to change your tactics for them.

Rain of Stones is an extreme exemple, there are several other ways to inflict hideous losses to a bunch of unprotected mages who would survive with just Ironskin.

The weightless armors and rainbow armor and so on should be able to help a great deal there.

That's an expensive way to protect a horde of 90 gp mages.

Losing quickness and air 2 to gain ironskin for a few rare cases isn't that much of a deal.

On that I agree. Just wanted to point out that Ironskin is still far from useless. 90 gp mages are expendable if need be, put a dozen close to the front line and try (Ironskin)(Summ. Storm Power)(Mistform)(Mirror Image)(Resist Lightning)(cast spells) someday, works wonders if you can get the timing right so the enemy troops close on your mages as soon as they've finished casting their buffs.

quote:

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But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph...

Those two harab seraphs are only good for research though

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That's another matter. The point was : "Raptors are a bit faster researchers", and you followed with "I doubt this".

[Liadran]

First about research as Nagot Gick Fel said Harab Seraphs are faster researchers. If you (as is mostly done with Caelum) add Magic scale to that, then you're research is a bit faster than base Caelum can go with (base Caelum Seraph is also faster than High Seraph.

With Harab Seraphs you also get undead leadership. That's not to be forgotten with them. Also their paths are not useless if you think about the troops they are normally used with. Nagot already pointed out one good use for them. But if one says that only usefull spell is Orb Lightning then you haven't checked all the choices there is. That earth pick is very usefull for early expansion. If you go on item usage, then it's much more powerfull (they also can use Rain of Stones and also reserach it quite quickly). Ironskin as said is a very good spell (as are some others). It's not that uncommon to kill unarmoured mages.

Spring Hawks and etc rituals can be cast by Harab Elders as well as High Seraphs. For construction you can more easily get Dwarven Hammers. You only get 1 more air gem/turn, so not much more air rituals for base Caelum. Too much lighting use can backflash later in the game (can be defended against, and everyone will expect it). Storm is as effective for Raptors as for base Caelum. Quickness is missing and it takes some firepower away, but Raptors are not designed for combat lighting firepower as base Caelum is. They have more strengts elsewhere. Elders are Capital only which means that you have less of them, but Harab Seraphs used well are far from ineffective (they just are not lightning throwers). In longer games upkeep is quite important thing. Raptors have lower upkeep and it counts for quite much. Also the better aproach for no supply and no upkeep troops is an important matter. And the fact that Raptors are better at hurting enemy economy is very important.

When you start you can (with patrol) buy few Elders already. It also saves money if you consider other ways than Mammoths for early expansion.

Raptors synergy with their magic comes with their troops, not only with combat spells. Air, earth and death must all be used to their full effect. Earth can alone fix some of the flaws of Caelums' troops.

About that Dominion. Raptors can't push their dominion as effectively as base Caelum, meaning that where the figth is there most propably is not a Cold +3 province (and you don't have Wolven Winter for easy use).

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Good Point about Rain of Stones, RotR itself can use it to good effect, because of Ironskin.

Otherwise I agree with Graeme and others, RotR is much weaker than vanilla. Although I'd be happy enough with it if I could get rid of the holy-2 on the Elders for, say 20 gold, and get the Seraphines back in exchange.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Zen:
It does have something to do with morale.

No it doesn't. A size one hobbit alone in a square gets attacked just as often as a size six pretender alone in a square. A size 4 giant with a size 1 or 2 companion isn't alone in a square.

I will say this: Jotun militia *might* rout where other militia would have *certainly* died. That's certainly true. I have never, ever heard that they have a "reputation for cowardice" though; as I said, all I have *ever* heard about Jotun militia is that they're by far the best.

No. They don't. They get attacked less since you can put 6 hobbits in a square. And only 1 giant per square. Unless you have an attack that affects an entire square (I.E. Harvest Blade) the giant will get more attacks because each attack on a square doesn't go to the 'first unit' in the square, but is determined randomly.

This is why Vaetti and Huskarls fill the weakness of getting swarmed in Base and Utgard themes.

[ March 05, 2004, 18:47: Message edited by: Zen ]