Surrender, Routing, and Pacificm

[Wauthan]

Ah well I was sort of thinking along the lines of the fantasy setting Version of "good".

It's all too true that the definition of good guys all to often is the same as "what the victorious named themselves". But Dominions 2 does of course not take place in a historical setting. The gods are literally walking the earth and raw magic seeps into the mortal world in the shape of oddly coloured gemstones.

Doing anything in the name of god gets a whole lot more problematic when the diety is around to tell you what he thinks about your interpretation of its words. And just think about the presence of angels, devils, the spirits of the dead and the whole cadre of mythical creatures. Doing "good deeds" might simply mean "do what angels do". If no angels are around you can always pop down to the local necromancer. Ask your favorite ancestor about the afterlife and what you should do to get into the less miserable parts of it.

So while your argument is completely valid Karacan it sort of gets stretched a lot in the imaginary setting of Dominions 2. What I'm after is simply a system that rewards me for using a very different style of strategy than usual. It simply makes for a different story than the "I killed everyone and now I am allpowerful". If you happened to play the game "Black & White" you know what I mean. It sort of a wish to be able to be the hero of the story rather than the most successful shade of grey.

[Karacan]

Yeah, I know we're arguing about a game - which always gets problematic when someone starts throwing around arguments based on real history.

Yes, I played Black & White, and I always managed to be sort of white-ish... until I got fed up and started hurling fireballs towards enemy villages

However, I like consistency and realism in the system presented. Dominions plays in a world where wanna-be gods walk the earth and lead armies to conquer the unbelievers... however, most of the armies consist of human(oid) beings, and when I think of humans, I have this certain (dark, cynic) image in mind, especially when it comes to Holy War.

Anyway, I probably just argue for the sake of argument (it's fun, isn't it ), for generally, I am very much in favour for being able to do things differently. On the other hand, I think that Dom supplies already enough of those methods. Want a peaceful solution? Preach the heretics out of existence. Indoctrinate enemy provinces. Master Enslave the opposing army (okay, I admit I never managed to pull that off).

Do you really think that adding another level of management (those PoWs) adds to the game, feeling-wise and mechanic-wise? I argued about the feeling of the game for now, I think, I am sure someone else can do so for the mechanics and balance.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by tinkthank:

(Note: personal ramble follows, ignore if you dont like such stuff.) Besides my own humble views on ethics and morals (which obviously are somehow in conflict with my desire to play wargames and other forms of games involving the virtual harming of others), I would sort of like my wife to have at least slightly less abhorrance to my addiciton to such games, and I would also like to have slightly less feelings of guilt when my children get old enough to play computer games and I get torn in two between wanting to be a didactically upright moralist and a didactically inconsistant hypocrite.

Real easy solution to that.

GAME is HERE.


------------------REALITY----------------------


REAL LIFE is HERE.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Zurai:
Real easy solution to that.

GAME is HERE.


------------------REALITY----------------------


REAL LIFE is HERE.

I couldn't agree more. I am (in real life) a committed Catholic, with a family of my own; my wife and I teach very strict morals around the house, and we try our hardest to live up to those same standards - but I have no problem with this game.

Why? It isn't real. It doesn't even try to approximate anything that's real. Certain games aren't good for younger kids to see/participate in, and you might decide that Dom II is one of those. It's okay. Some things are simply made for more mature adults, with a better grasp on the difference between fantasy and reality.

My two cents.

[ March 08, 2004, 00:17: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

[tinkthank]

Hey thanks for these replies so far.

Wauthan, I liked your ideas very much. Those are some good in-game variables which could be implemented. I think, anyhow, that this could add to the game very much. I'd like to see some of those in the future. (Probably very far in the future....!)
Note that my initial idea was to be *able* to use variables such as these, not *have to* do so.
Also note that my original idea didnt necessarily want to employ any (tangible) in-game bonuses for being "good" (as Wauthan says).
Also note that I imagine *one* nation of 18 (a new nation) primarily trying to be moral (I prefer not to use the term "good", for the good reasons that Karacan mentioned) as part of their national identity. This would certainly be a different nation than, say, Marignon, who also believes in its own "good"ness to the point of fanatacism.
As to the reference to realism Karacan mentioned: that is not (I think) the issue at all.
Oh and sure there is something to be said for easy demarcations between game and reality; of course. But anyone who has even begun to read any scientific literature in the areas of cognitive pedagogics, modern didactics, and social psychology will tell you that -- although there is no real consensus at the moment amongst all researchers -- there appears to be at least a slight correlation between the way that persons conceive of their real-life world and the way that persons conceive of their fictionalized worlds; if people like Ricoeur are not completely wrong (and I happen to think that Ricoeur has, despite many points not fully articulated that need further explanation and empirical backing), there is a lot to be said about our identity as a "narrative", which can be interwoven with that which some have simply refered to as "fiction"; Ricouer shows that these seemingly simple boundaries are nifty heuristic devices, but nothing more. Drawing boundaries between real life and, say, gaming worlds requires a high degree of normative work, and cannot be taken for granted, at least not by everybody. So sure: here game, there reality, but no: it's not quite that simple, and certainly not for everybody.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
So sure: here game, there reality, but no: it's not quite that simple, and certainly not for everybody.

Exactly. That is precisely why I said that some games are for *mature* adults who are capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality. Just being an adult, biologically and legally, isn't really enough.

And of course the things you do for entertainment have a certain impact, no matter how small, on your day to day life. But it works the other way around, as well, as an "outlet".

EDIT: I forgot to add that with a degree in Secondary Education as well as a naturally inquisitive mind, I read enough theories on cognition to turn my eyeballs brown.

[ March 08, 2004, 12:50: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by fahdiz:

quote:

---

Originally posted by tinkthank:
So sure: here game, there reality, but no: it's not quite that simple, and certainly not for everybody.

Exactly. That is precisely why I said that some games are for *mature* adults who are capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality. Just being an adult, biologically and legally, isn't really enough.

And of course the things you do for entertainment have a certain impact, no matter how small, on your day to day life. But it works the other way around, as well, as an "outlet".

EDIT: I forgot to add that with a degree in Secondary Education as well as a naturally inquisitive mind, I read enough theories on cognition to turn my eyeballs brown.

---

OK!
Is turning your eyeballs brown a good or a bad thing (in your eyes -- bad pun not intended)?
So it seems like at least some pacifistic options could thus be not only fun, but also great for a target group of young persons, such as my kids. (right?)