Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
And I simply pointed out that its possible to have unknown nonexistent magic sites at the capital as well.
Copper and Iron Mines which become available from events.

And thus we start from square one again, and another four pages of bickering.

As you very well know, copper and iron mines do not become available from events (implying that they have some sort of prior existence as iron or core deposits, which is now through the hard labour of the peasantry turned into an iron mine) - they are created out of nothing as a random event based on the current scales of the province in question. The text blurb may say otherwise, but only the most credulous peasant in the land would believe it - and we are discussing as players, not as inhabitants of the fantasy world.

If an "iron deposit" or a "copper deposit" were created in specific provinces during game initialisation and then found at some time during game play, you would have a point in saying that they were made available, became known, &etc.

But they are not.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:52: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[NTJedi]

Peter look at it from this angle then:

Hypothetically speaking if a fortune teller was able to see into the future and witness the event which brought the copper and/or iron mine then for that fortune teller it would be known and nonexistent.
OR
If someone programmed an event for that copper and/or iron mine to appear.... then for that programmer it would be known and nonexistent. Yet it would remain unknown and nonexistent for any of the other gamers.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:57: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Since when does precognition have a place in the debate of existance? Might as well say "What if Space Clams said sometime in the future there would be X" then it has to be known, yes?

[NTJedi]

Zen look at it from this angle then:


If someone programmed an event for that copper and/or iron mine to appear.... then for that programmer it would be known and nonexistent. Yet it would remain unknown and nonexistent for any of the other gamers.

Only from their peception. I can claim to 'know' things which may or may not be fictional about anything. And you've switched your debate topic. What if the programmer programmed the copper or iron mine to only appear on certain conditions but not for other conditions? Then those conditions are not met, so there is no possibility of there ever being a iron or copper mine, is it still known?

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by NTJedi:

Hypothetically speaking if a fortune teller was able to see into the future and witness the event which brought the copper and/or iron mine then for that fortune teller it would be known and nonexistent.

Ok, hypothetically allowing precognition, and infallible precognition at that.... (I know I am going to regret this)

No, the copper mine would be nonexistent but it would be known to the fortuneteller that a copper mine would exist at some time and place in the future. That is not the same as that future copper mine being known to the fortuneteller in the present, and, likewise, the copper mine was not unknown in the present before the fortune teller performed his divination.

Before the divination, the fact that a specific copper mine would exist at that time in the future would be unknown - but that fact is not the copper mine.

If someone programmed an event for that copper and/or iron mine to appear.... then for that programmer it would be known and nonexistent.

No, that future mine would be nonexistent in the present, but the programmer would know the fact that a copper mine with specific properties would come into existence at some time in the future. He would not know the copper mine now.

You seem to be consistently equating concepts and ideas with objects, and equating knowledge of future events with future objects being known in the present (when, in fact, only the knowledge that they will exist in the future is known), which makes this discussion very surreal.

EDIT: More surreal that it was already, that is. Bringing precognition into a discussion is not usually a good way to advance your cause.

[ March 20, 2004, 00:17: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
No, that future mine would be nonexistent in the present, but the programmer would know the fact that a copper mine with specific properties would come into existence at some time in the future. He would not know the copper mine now.

It would be known that the copper mine is nonexistent until the event took place. Thus the copper mine is known and nonexistent for this case. One could even prepare to use the mine the day it arrives by saving gold. Another explanation for it being known and nonexistent. The fact that it is known to appear in the future still shows there is known knowledge about the mine.

==================================

Originally posted by Zen:
What if the programmer programmed the copper or iron mine to only appear on certain conditions but not for other conditions? Then those conditions are not met, so there is no possibility of there ever being a iron or copper mine, is it still known?

Yes... the programmer still has known knowledge about the mine. The programer knows the mine will appear when those conditions are met... thus making it known and nonexistent. The copper mine would remain unknown and nonexistent for all the other gamers unless the programmer lets them know and/or the event occurs.

[ March 20, 2004, 00:54: Message edited by: NTJedi ]