The next patch

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
It takes about 50 turns to go from a 5 astral income with no water to having 100 clams, assuming that absolutely no other site searching is done.

No, it does not.... It takes 69 rounds In 50 rounds you reach a mere 40 clams according to my astal calculator (or 87 if you assume a 25% forge bonus).


/tables skiped/

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I'll be damned! Thanks Peter. I knew it was scary, but I didn't realize it was _that_ scary. ;(

[ April 02, 2004, 11:04: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[magnate]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

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Originally posted by Cainehill:

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Originally posted by magnate:
One thing I'd like to see in the next patch is a 2nd visit to the races screen, after the map is chosen. It shouldn't be too hard to do, and you don't even have to allow any changes on this 2nd visit (open to debate but whatever), but just show us what changes the map selection has made to the race selections. This would vastly simplify the use of user-made maps and scenarios, especially for SP. Good for MP too - maybe you could choose a different race if you really didn't like the map they chose ....

Another good alternative to this, and easier to program, would be to have map selection come -before- race selection. That way you know how many provinces, how much water, whether there are a recommended number of races, restrictions on which races/nations that are played, etc.

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I really cant see this. I tend to create a new game with more of an idea of what nation I want to play than with what map I want to play on. To choose from ALL the maps and then find out that my nation isnt a choice seems less desireable than to choose the nation then find out that all the maps are not available.

Its not that hard anyway to just hit ESC and back up to make a change the way it is now.

An option on the race selection screen to randomize which non-human-controlled races are in the game would be rather nice also, especially with graphs turned off. Let it be a surprise as you come across the nations in the game.

I guess this could be interesting but at the moment thats a feature of the map controls. I generate maps daily on my site that randomize the AI opponents.

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Cainehill - thanks for that - I suggested it a while ago, before I found this thread (which has been totally dominated by a single issue), but I changed my suggestion in order to appease those, like Gandalf, who want to choose their race first. This way it's minimal change to the status quo.

Gandalf - you seem a little dismissive of the alternative view. It *IS* painful to Esc back up to the races screen, check/change all the selections and then reselect the map. It's tedious and, if the map has specific settings which override your choices, frustrating. Having a second visit to the races screen after choosing the map would simply and precisely alleviate this problem. It would cost you one single extra click on "Ok".

At the moment there is no alternative but to know quite a lot about the map you want to play before you choose the races (ie. how much water, etc.). It would make the game more user-friendly if you could browse the maps before *finalising* the race selections. I don't mind a trip to the races screen first as well.

CC

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
I'll be damned! Thanks Peter. I knew it was scary, but I didn't realize it was _that_ scary. ;(

Well, the scariness all depends on the other players letting the astral user getting away with it. It takes 20+1 rounds for astrals gems converted to water gems made into clams of pearls to pay off (14+1 rounds with a dwarven hammer, but then you need to pay for the hammer as well) so it takes a medium to long term game with a heavy investment in astral for a long, long, time to become truly scary.

I guess it is easier to get away with the more players there are, as it becomes possible to be overlooked for some time by not acting particularly aggressively and by being hard to attack. R'lyeh would probably be the best candidate for that with an "We're just a bunch of squid-faces on the bottom of the sea who want to live in peace" - while hoarding astral clams.

But even so, for my money, it is not all that abusable as it requires active collusion from your enemies for many dozens of turns in order to reach critical mass (unless you fight a large number of very good sites nearly). If your enemies hit you hard, it is going to be hard to avoid diverting a fair number of gems into various magical defenses and summonings.

[Zapmeister]

Well, the scariness all depends on the other players letting the astral user getting away with it.

Not letting someone "get away" with something implies that there's some way of discovering that they're doing it. If the culprit sits on their astral stash until the mid to late game, who's to know ?

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

quote:

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Well, the scariness all depends on the other players letting the astral user getting away with it.

Not letting someone "get away" with something implies that there's some way of discovering that they're doing it. If the culprit sits on their astral stash until the mid to late game, who's to know ?

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No, it implies that there is a way of preventing the astral user from doing it, whether someone else knows about it or not.

What I mean is that if everybody is leaving a player mostly alone for 40-60 turns or attacking him so little that he is not forced to use gems in his defense, they damn well deserve what happens to them after that.

[Zapmeister]

Yeah, it sounds OK in theory. But in practice, you're just one fish in a very big pond. You can't hassle everybody, and you have to look after your own interests at home. In the game I referred to earlier in this thread, going after R'lyeh any earlier would have been the end of me. You just don't have that kind of control over the game.

[Wendigo]

20: Clams= 10 Income= 15 Waste= 0 Store= 18 --> Produced 1 clams

I am with Jasper. I am far from impressed by the above numbers, and those are a 'best possible' scenario for an astral power: Construction research for clam forging + 1 dwarven hammer already forged available both from turn3, which is basically impossible.

Even if it was, forfeiting the gem income from 20 turns (100 gems!) to get a +10 gem income is far from impressive. On standard settings I am pretty sure I could get a better income with half the investment by just casting a few search spells.

It seems to me that the players running into this are playing extremely big maps vs fairly passive opponents. The only nations I can imagine pulling this on more average settings are Atlantis & R'lyeh (thanks to the combination of early invulnerability & water income), and only if the other sea nation is not present in the game.

Even so, it's disputable that a clam strategy would be a better investment than an early casting of Voice of Tiamat on every sea: Sacrifice 10 gems for a 1 gem income, or 8 gems for a 2+ income?

As far as I am concerned, clam forging is a good use for water gems that have no immediate use, but I cannot imagine alchemying astrals for this.

[ April 02, 2004, 12:53: Message edited by: Wendigo ]