Can you get the best random events w/o Luck +3?

[Wendigo]

I prefer Ermor with turmoil 3, misfortune 3 over turmoil 3, luck 3, but both are certainly viable.

Disagree, at least regarding competitive MP. Missfortune Ermor might be viable playing with rare events, but on standard event settings it's a poor choice IMO.

Without even considering the bad events (lab/temple losses, master thief...) you would be giving up on Money events, mine events, gem events & Etimmu.

While Ermor has lower monetary needs than live nations alchemy & pillaging can only take you so far to cover these...you have to pay for forts, temples, labs, indep wizards to expand your narrow magics & scouts. Which of those would you sacrifice? How can a few more magic levels on the pretender compensate for such sacrifice?

The pretender can still only search one province per turn, cast one ritual per turn, forge one item per turn or fight one battle per turn.

[ March 26, 2004, 09:45: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Wendigo:

quote:

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I prefer Ermor with turmoil 3, misfortune 3 over turmoil 3, luck 3, but both are certainly viable.

Disagree, at least regarding competitive MP. Missfortune Ermor might be viable playing with rare events, but on standard event settings it's a poor choice IMO.

Without even considering the bad events (lab/temple losses, master thief...) you would be giving up on Money events, mine events, gem events & Etimmu.

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Etimmu's usefulness depends on whether you are playing Ermor AE or SG. For AE he is an enormously beneficial hero - for SG he is only slightly better than the standard Wraith leaders.

You would still be getting some gem events, e.g. the ones where the witch curses your troops (who cares)

I only play with standard event frequency and have not felt real pain with misfortune 3 as Ermor SG. It costs a few temples every now and then but that is certainly survivable, so long as you have a good alchemy based economy going.

While Ermor has lower monetary needs than live nations alchemy & pillaging can only take you so far to cover these...you have to pay for forts, temples, labs, indep wizards to expand your narrow magics & scouts. Which of those would you sacrifice? How can a few more magic levels on the pretender compensate for such sacrifice?

We are talking about 240 points difference here. That is more than a "few" more magic levels. It is enough for an extra path to reach 9 - or, to my mind preferable, boost a few extra paths up to 4.

The pretender can still only search one province per turn, cast one ritual per turn, forge one item per turn or fight one battle per turn. [/qb]

Completely true. However, the pretender with 4 in most any path will find all magic sites in the province he searches including the rare sites that reduce spell costs. The pretender with 2's and 3's will not.

And while the pretender is only able to do one thing at a time, the pretender is able to do very nearly anything. Summon any unit (including all the high-level spell-casting uniques) and cast any global (with the possible exception of astral if you chickened out of high astral). You are able to adapt to any magical situation on hand, assuming you have the magical gems. You are never in the "I have to boost my pretender two levels with items in order to summon a monster than with a mere three boosts from items is capable of performing the summon" situation.

With the pretender taking a province and searching it on alternating turns for the first many turns, the better magic pretender can create a huge initial advantage in gems and good sites.

The utility of this is highly dependent on map size and the expected game length and it goes without saying that turmoil 3, misfortune 3 is risky: turmoil 3, luck 3 is certainly safer.

...But try an SG Ermor with -3/-3/-3/-3/-3/+3 some day. It is an interesting experience

[Wendigo]

For SG Etimmu can summon ghosts, act as a SC with Soul Vortex & doesn't cost 35 gems...

There are very few lv4 sites and you have the death ones covered. Not worth it taking 4 just to be able to uncover them. 3 is indeed good, but you can already afford that without taking missfortune.

And regarding fighting you still only have 1 mage with only 5 scripted spells, regardless of his/her might...lv3 or 4 does not make that much a difference.
You would still be restricted to using your pretender for everything when you put all your eggs on one basket, while with a better economy you could just hire a few indep mages freeing a lot of your pretender's time: more battle mages, more ritual casters & more forgers are superior to taking a few skills from 3 to 4...you want to cast spells as if you were lv4 in the field? just hire a couple shamen & communion for better results.

You will have more, and better troops with a better economy also.

In my dead Ermor's experience (mostly from DomI admitedly) a great deal of your chances for success with Ermor rely on maximizing your Pretender's time...you do that through a luck scale that gives you coin for indeps early on, and through a non drain scale that allows you to research the magics to summon magic critters with magic skills later on. How far you go with each has obvious trade-offs, but definitely superior to missfortune & drain in my experience.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
For SG Etimmu can summon ghosts, act as a SC with Soul Vortex & doesn't cost 35 gems...

And can arrive on turn 2, on turn 30, or not at all. I never build strategies around heroes, it is just too unpredictable when (or whether) they arrive.

There are very few lv4 sites and you have the death ones covered. Not worth it taking 4 just to be able to uncover them. 3 is indeed good, but you can already afford that without taking missfortune.

Let us just say that I am a compulsive gem-gatherer. Additionally, the many L4 paths allows leaders with Shirts of the Battle Saint a large number of useful enhancements (I prefer slapping Rainbow Armour on just about every mage/priest leader but Shirt of the Battle Saint will do in a pinch. The host of minor blessings added to the major fear effect of death 9 [obligatory] also make Wraith Centurions or Bane Lords even nastier SCs)

And regarding fighting you still only have 1 mage with only 5 scripted spells, regardless of his/her might...lv3 or 4 does not make that much a difference.

I completely agree that it does not make much difference in which spells you can cast in combat. You will remember that I specifically mentioned ritual spells for putting up globals or summoning mages (e.g. elemental kings, queens, &etc) to summon other mages. [It is usually much faster to reach spell level 5 from 4 than it is from 3]. That said 3 or 4 makes an enormous difference in fatigue for higher level spells in combat.

You would still be restricted to using your pretender for everything when you put all your eggs on one basket,

Until reaching conjuration 5-7, at which point I could easily summon ANY mage to do the rest of the work within his branch of magic.

while with a better economy you could just hire a few indep mages freeing a lot of your pretender's time: more battle mages, more ritual casters & more forgers are superior to taking a few skills from 3 to 4...you want to cast spells as if you were lv4 in the field? just hire a couple shamen & communion for better results.

Assuming that I get these good independent mages and shamen, which while likely on large maps, is not all that likely on small. As noted earlier, much depends on map size.

You will have more, and better troops with a better economy also.

No, I may have that, if I get lucky. A few 1,500g events in the early game, for instance, will vindicate your position completely. But that does not necessarily happen. You can still have your temples destroyed by earthquakes, have your labs on fire, &etc with luck +3.

In my dead Ermor's experience (mostly from DomI admitedly) a great deal of your chances for success with Ermor rely on maximizing your Pretender's time...you do that through a luck scale that gives you coin for indeps early on, and through a non drain scale that allows you to research the magics to summon magic critters with magic skills later on. How far you go with each has obvious trade-offs, but definitely superior to missfortune & drain in my experience. [/QB]

I never advocated drain. I suggested misfortune and magic, not drain. (In fact, drain is impossible in the Soul Gate theme)

And you may very well be right, it is entirely possible that, on balance, it is better to take the luck 3 than misfortune 3 and the 240 extra points for magic skills, fortress, pretender, and dominion 10. I am just not convinced of it yet, based on my limited Ermor playing.

I am convinced that your suggestion is safer on average, so if your strategy is based on risk-minimizing (which is not a bad default strategy), that is the way to go.

I just suggest you do not write off Ermor with misfortune/magic immediately.

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

quote:

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And can arrive on turn 2, on turn 30, or not at all. I never build strategies around heroes, it is just too unpredictable when (or whether) they arrive.

It will definitely be none at all with misf3.
Etimmu is one of the best heroes in the game, you shouldn't kill your chances of getting such a free boost. And the free U4 mound king is also good.

Let us just say that I am a compulsive gem-gatherer.

Still, not cost effective.

Additionally, the many L4 paths allows leaders with Shirts of the Battle Saint a large number of useful enhancements (I prefer slapping Rainbow Armour on just about every mage/priest leader but Shirt of the Battle Saint will do in a pinch. The host of minor blessings added to the major fear effect of death 9 [obligatory] also make Wraith Centurions or Bane Lords even nastier SCs)

Shrouds are non removable & replace armor, resulting thus in a decrease in protection. I am not as convinced as you that they should be handed around liberally, even less for undead commanders that ignore encumbrance from armour when fighting.
Who would make all those rainbow armours for you? Only your pretender can & no summoned critter would help there unless you roll a N-A spectre (1/64 chance). With a good economy you just have to look for a jade sorc province.
If you are so fond of Fear, Etimmu is actually the best non pretender chasis to pile these bonuses in the game: with 3D+3U he gets a +6 fear bonus on top of his 'being a wraith' fear.

Until reaching conjuration 5-7, at which point I could easily summon ANY mage to do the rest of the work within his branch of magic.

This is really the only advantage of your set up, and that extra lv for ritual casting is just a matter of an extra booster item, not that expensive (and something that you can get in-game, as opposed to better scales).

Assuming that I get these good independent mages and shamen, which while likely on large maps, is not all that likely on small. As noted earlier, much depends on map size.

Not really. I do not play MP monster maps but rather maps with 10-15 indep provinces/nation. Good chances of at least a couple exhotic mages avaliable in those, plus whatever mages you uncover from hidden sites on top of that pair.

[quote]

You will have more, and better troops with a better economy also.

No, I may have that, if I get lucky. A few 1,500g events in the early game, for instance, will vindicate your position completely. But that does not necessarily happen. You can still have your temples destroyed by earthquakes, have your labs on fire, &etc with luck +3.

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You do not need the 1500 events, in fact, I'd rather have a couple gold mines...those are _permanent_ income (and x2 for Ermor).
More forts means more unholy knights & legionaries, & safer gem income...

And you may very well be right, it is entirely possible that, on balance, it is better to take the luck 3 than misfortune 3 and the 240 extra points for magic skills, fortress, pretender, and dominion 10. I am just not convinced of it yet, based on my limited Ermor playing.

I am not going as far as advocating 3luck over everyhting else (you will hate the 'good' militia events for example). But I am pretty convinced that luck is superior to misfortune for dead Ermor.

[Wyatt Hebert]

Just a thought, Wendigo.

Rainbow Armor has another great side effect. It only requires 1A/1N, which means that Forge of the Ancients lets _all_ of your mages forge it... and the cost is reduced... and, a Rainbow Mage with 4E only needs Earth Boots to cast Forge. All in all, I like Rainbow Armor's low path requirements, personally, _because_ Forge lets everyone make it.

Just a thought on that particular point.

Wyatt

In MP it's rare you can count on Forge of the Ancients as something you are going to get and have for any reasonable amount of time.