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Old April 25th, 2004, 08:23 AM

Norfleet Norfleet is offline
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Default Re: Light Infantry... what the ****

Light Infantry are superior late-game to Heavy infantry because of their far lesser resource cost. They cost no gems that you otherwise need for summoning serious stuff. They're completely expendable and use a resource you no longer have as much need of.

By late game, heavy infantry will be butchered en-masse just as easily as lights. Both have the same gold cost, but generally, you need a mob of men on short notice to serve as siege fodder and expendable meatshields. Gold is probably not what you are most concerned about. Heavy infantry, therefore, fail to serve the job: I need lots of crappy troops, and I need them yesterday! The production costs of HI are such that provinces cannot produce them by the dozens every turn: Since they will all likely die a gruesome death at the hands of a Bane Lord or the Ghost Riders, actual strength is irrelevant: They just need to live long enough to bash down the gates.

[ April 25, 2004, 07:23: Message edited by: Norfleet ]
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Old April 25th, 2004, 08:31 AM

Cohen Cohen is offline
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Default Re: Light Infantry... what the ****

SCs kills a little the game ...

Productivity scale is worthless so on ... and armies are too ...
LI or HI have little influence ...

I believe LI and HI are well balanced, but Armies usefulness should be preverved for all the duration of a game. Not only against Indies.
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  #3  
Old November 7th, 2004, 03:28 AM

FarAway Pretender FarAway Pretender is offline
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Default Re: Light Infantry... what the ****

(Dusting off an old thread here)

I like the idea of adding a Fatigue penalty for adverse terrain, but I'm not sure how that would play out, especially for spell-casting heroes (is casting fireballs while standing in mud any harder than standing on grass?).

I think that plopping "rough terrain" patches down in the middle of the field would get a bit unwieldy, especially in terms of the way the AI would have to deal with pathfinding algorithms, etc. I don't mind losing battles due to bad terrain, but I'd hate to lose battles because my commander took a different path around some rough terrain than his units!

While I'm a big fan of realism, I think we all acknowledge that combat in Dominions is a little abstracted anyway. I mean, they're individual soldiers, not units of soldiers, that we plunk out on the map in the first place. Who would really go to war with a party of 15 or 20 guys to dominate an entire province of 20,000 people.

If we really only have 15 or 20 guys fighting somewhere, why would they pick a huge field?

I think the most elegant way to include terrain in Dom 3 battles would be to abstractualize (is that a word?) the impact of terrain and borrow something from the Warlords handbook. Just have a simple grid of "Terrain Effects", where LI, HI, LC, and HC get different penalties (to Encumb, Movement, etc.) in different terrain. It makes sense to me that Heavy Cavalary is more effective in Open Plains than in the Mountains.
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Old November 7th, 2004, 06:42 AM
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Wauthan Wauthan is offline
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Default Re: Light Infantry... what the ****

With Dominions 3 looming at a distant horizon I can't help but wonder if terrain dependant battlefields have been implemented? Since Illwinter are well aware of the power difference between light and heavy cavalry/infantry I'm sure they taken a few stabs at helping the underdogs.
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Old November 7th, 2004, 07:53 AM

deccan deccan is offline
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Default Re: Light Infantry... what the ****

Quote:
Wauthan said:
Since Illwinter are well aware of the power difference between light and heavy cavalry/infantry I'm sure they taken a few stabs at helping the underdogs.
It would help if upkeep costs were reworked to take into account resource costs as well as purchase costs. After all, it would make sense that a HI with heavy, complex armour, high quality weapons etc. would cost more money to maintain in good repair.
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Old November 8th, 2004, 01:30 PM

RedRover RedRover is offline
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Default Re: Light Infantry... what the ****

A few definitions:

Peltast: Greek. Light skirmishing infantryman, usually armed with javelins and a shield (the type of shield was called a “pelta”). They covered the flanks of the main body of Greek warriors (phalanx), which was composed of heavy infantry (hoplites).

Psiloi: Greek. Roughly translates as “stripped” or “bare,” in this context “unarmored.” Several sets of tabletop wargame rules, notably DBA (De Bellis Antiquitatis, see here), uses “psiloi” as a technical term for light skirmishing infantry.

A few thoughts on the topics:

LIGHT INFANTRY
Occupying Ground Area 2+.

I like this idea. I think supply is a non-issue, just give the light infantry a #supplybonus equal to one less than its area (it is in the modding pdf).

For arrow targeting, a unit modding command could probably be set up to discard a certain pecentage of arrows hitting the unit (the Sunray Library “not in the spell manual” notes indicate Storm conditions work something like this already).

BATTLEFIELD TERRAIN
I think terrain encumbrance modifiers for movement and melee attacks would be sufficient to represent battlefield terrain. Can’t see casting encumbrance modified by this, though. I like the idea of weather modifiers, too; these might modify casting encumbrance, like some of the spells do.

Plains/Farm: +0 to encumbrance
Forest/Sea: +1 to encumbrance (infantry*, light cavalry*),
+2 to encumbrance (heavy cavalry, elephants,
chariots)
Mountain/Swamp: +2 to encumbrance (infantry*, light
cavalry),
+3 (heavy cavalry, elephants, chariots)

* No penalty for these units if they have the matching terrain survival. Monsters generally count as infantry.

Light rain or snow: +1 encumbrance
Heavy rain or snow: +2 encumbrance
Storm: +2 for infantry and light cavalry,
+3 for heavy cavalry and elephants

AMBUSHES
Here’s an idea for working this in:

(new strategic order) Ambush
This means that the stationary army is carefully choosing the terrain and battle conditions to be as favorable as possible.

Ambush Factor = (XP level of best defending commander +d3) – (XP level of best attacking commander + d3)

+1 if all defenders are stealthy or have terrain survival for province type*
+2 if all defenders are stealthy and have terrain survival for province type*
-1 if attacker has a scout or spy in the province
-1 if attacker has at least 10 Light Cavalry in the province

*if multiple types, use the terrain most favorable to the defender

1) Half the positive difference (round up) is added to the defender’s morale for the battle, and also subtracted from the attacker’s morale for the battle. A 0 or less difference is ignored; the battle is then normal.

2) For every positive 2 difference, the attacker loses one tactical turn (no move, no spells, or no fire).

[The largest difference you can expect is 9 (defender 5th, attacker 0), so a completely inexperienced commander against a 5th-level commander with stealthy terrain-savvy troops is going to sitting for 4 tactical turns at morale –5, against the defender, who has morale +5.

LIGHT CAVALRY
Perhaps we could distinguish between true light cavalry and unarmored massed horse—light cavalry has specific strategic and tactical functions that should be reflected in the design of a nation’s units. Not all lightly armored cavalry functions as "light cavalry."

STRATEGIC USES: Light Cavalry scouts, screens, patrols, raids, and pursues.

1) Scouting: The cavalry is ordered to investigate and secure an area, but not hold it in the face of an enemy attack. The moving in and investigating is currently handled, but a coherent exit is not, thus:

(new strategic order) Scout
This order can be given only to a mounted (or light chariot) commander who commands only light cavalry (or light chariots). A force with these orders withdraws as a body to a friendly province without a battle if an enemy force of more than 1.1x their number enters their province. If there is no friendly province available, a battle is fought.

2) Screening
No new strategic order, but count light cavalry as 4 units for purposes of general information (light chariots maybe 3). Thus, a unit of 20 light cavalry looks like a field force of 80 unless you have scouts or spies on the ground in the province.

3) Patrolling
Light cavalry has a minimum patrol rating of #ptrl +5 as part of their unit statistics.

4) Raiding

(new strategic order) Pillage and Move
A “move and pillage” order has been suggested. My take on it is to reverse these elements, making the pillage happen first—that is, a force with a stratmove of 2 or 3 can pillage a province and then move away one province. This allows an aggressive reaction force to contest an incursion before the actual pillaging takes place, but still allows an aggressive pillager to leave a trail of mayhem if the defender is unwilling or unable to respond. IMO this would play better than to allow an automatic pillaging success.

5) Strategic Pursuit
Since this function is controlled by the player, no further action is needed.

* Unit Size: Like light infantry, Light Cavalry might be given a larger area.

TACTICAL USES: Skirmish, Skirmish Attack, Flanking, Pursuit

1) Skirmishing: The unit moves to missile range and shoots. If the enemy advances too closely, the skirmishers fall back. The second part of this is the current sticking point.

(new tactical order) Skirmish
Unit moves to within maximum range and fires. Whenever an enemy unit is closer than maximum range, the skirmishing unit retreats to its maximum range (or one move if less) and fires. A skirmishing unit driven from the field by an advancing enemy is routed. Any missile unit could be given this order.

(If maximum range doesn't work, a specific range might be set--a "skirmish range" value for missile troops (say, about 20 squares for most bows). That way, if a missile type doesn't skirmish (massed heavy archers, for example) the skirmish order won't work for them.

2) Skirmish Attack I: In this, the light cavalry attacks weak troops like archers and light infantry, but avoids engaging heavier units.

(revised tactical menu) Attack or Fire
The game mostly does this, but you might want to add a line to the Attack/Fire orders “Light Infantry” (defined for this purpose as infantry with protection 4 or less). Any unit could be given this target.

(new tactical order) Skirmish Attack
This is just like a skirmish order, but defaults to an Attack order when ammunition is exhausted.


3) Flanking: The game already does this to a great extent, about as much as we can expect it to. Put the LC on a flank, hold 2 turns and attack the target of choice. It works often enough to recreate the feel.

4) Pursuit: The light cavalry is held in reserve and released at the right moment to saber the fugitives. This always struck me as being more of a Napoleonic flourish than ancient or medieval practice. Still, simple is best, and it seems to me this can be adequately modeled as follows:

(new tactical order) Hold in Reserve
This is just like a hold order, except that it Lasts for 5 rounds (or however long you let the magic scripting go), then defaults to an Attack order. The idea is that the reserve unit is released just as the spellcasters go off script (allowing for a smidgen more coordination than we now have). Any unit can be given this order.

Sometimes, this will release the cavalry with the proper timing, sometimes it won’t. It would prevent light cavalry from streaming out and getting killed in the first couple rounds.

OTHER ORDER IDEAS

(new tactical order) Support Fire
Unit has “Hold” orders until an enemy approaches within range, at which time it defaults to Fire Closest orders. Of course, the unit does nothing if the enemy never comes into range.

(new strategic order) Train Troops
Troops under a leader with more experience stars than they have can train to receive extra experience.

[Design Notes:
1) Only troops benefit from this order; a commander gets standard experience points for the month.
2) Troops don’t gain bonus experience if they have the same number of stars or more as the commander. They get the standard +1 for breathing.
3) Units training for one turn receive 1 XP (for breathing) + 1 XP per two stars their commander has, rounded up.]

(new strategic order) Call Hero
Lets a prophet call for a hero to appear at the capital. If the need is great, the Pretender can support this call personally. Once the call succeeds, it will be six months before the prophet can try to call another hero. If the capital is not under friendly control, the call fails. Calling a hero does not affect and is not affected by the random arrival of heroes.

[The base success chance is 5%, adjusted by the national luck scale, for a range of 2%-8%. A Pretender adds a base 10% bonus, for a range of 12%-18%. The Pretender option only appears if the prophet option has been selected (picking the prophet option should prompt a query asking about adding in the Pretender). A message signaling when a Hero can again be called should be scripted in. Check hero list to make sure that all nations have a generic template hero seed that can be a default once the specially designed heroes are used.]

(new strategic order) Migrate
The leader organizes a population shift into an adjacent friendly province. The population moves with the leader. While the province must be friendly at the time of the order, the target population moves regardless of the fate of the commander or the ownership of the province at the end of the move.

[Land population can’t move into the sea, and vice versa. The amount of population moved is 50x unit capacity. Thus, a poor leader can move a 500 population. I was thinking of having the computer handle all of the number crunching, but it might be more fun to have a little “population unit” graphic.]

[In that case, population might be treated more like units, except they are recruited for free with the migration command, and are fed back into the province population number any time they are in a province without a leader attached. If there is a combat in a province with migrating population, then units that are killed die, and those that scatter end up where they end up.]

[This type of command is for people who want more tweaking. It may be too complex for the base game, but might be added as an option (default status off) for those who want to fiddle with it.]

A SOLO PLAY OPTION
While completely unsuitable for MP, this might be done as a toggle (default off) on the options screen.

Battlefield Signals
This would be a limited menu of “interrupt” orders that a solo player could trigger during a battle sequence.

These would represent battlefield signals via drums, trumpets, etc.

They are simple orders, defined before the battle starts, like unit orders.

An army might get 2-4 signals total during a battle, depending on nation, or maybe XP level of best leader. You’d get a popup before a battle giving the option to use signals. If you don’t set them then, you don’t have them.

Pausing the battle brings up the Signal Menu if you have enabled signals.

Routed and berserk units ignore signals. Typical signals might include:

General Attack: All non-missile or non-spellcasting units default to Attack Closest.
General Pursuit: All units except spell casters default to Attack Closest.
General Retreat: All units rout from field.
Cavalry Recall: All cavalry return to commander and go to Hold orders until Fatigue is 50+, then default to Attack Closest Enemy.
Infantry Recall: All infantry return to commander and go to Hold orders until Fatigue is 50+, then default to Attack Closest Enemy.
Large Monster Halt: Large monsters default to Hold orders until damaged, then default to Attack Closest.
Archer Skirmish: All missile units (with skirmish capability) receive Skirmish orders. Ignore if no ammunition.
Archer Retreat: All missile troops retreat 1 move and default to Fire Closest orders.

Rearm Missiles: Non-javelin missile troops without ammunition move to their commander. They Hold for two turns, at the end of which their ammo count is reset to its original value. (This order might be enabled by a special “Baggage” unit [stratmove 1] that must accompany the army.)
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