Suggestions to improve the Water Magic discipline

[Saxon]

Yumm, that reflection idea is very nice. A low level spell that just pushes a spell off a bit, probably hitting someone close by would help protect the mage, but not completely nullify the spell. A medium level spell would actually bounce it straight back at the offending caster, with the precision determined by the water mages level.

I also really liked the peaceful aspect suggested. Spells that limit fighting or the recruiting of fighting units would add a new aspect to the game. It would also make the arcane domes more attractive over key recruiting centers.

Finally, I thought I would add my two cents worth. Water magic really does not hold a lot of attraction for me. It has a couple of good things, available at low levels, but distinctly seems the least desirable of the paths. A couple more spells or items (not too many) would make this a more interesting choice and avoid the risk of over balancing.

[Chris Byler]

Cutting and pasting some of my ideas from the old clams thread (now sunk into obscurity):

I'd like to see a mini Falling Frost available at a lower research level. It's a long time from Cold Bolt to Falling Frost, and other paths have already gotten several more combat options by the time FF becomes available. (Some people have since suggested that it be an area-effect Ice Strike instead, which on consideration, I like better - one of the problems with water magic is its ineffectiveness against undead, because they are immune to cold *and* Jotuns', er, Sailors' Death.)

How about a Waterspout that stays on the battlefield for a few rounds (like the Cloud spells), crushes targets and throws them around (similar to trample)? Or a Water Jet that just deals some physical damage but doesn't require another path like Geyser? Those might not work that well against supercombatants, but they'd at least help against undead or Jotun armies.

Rituals: Winter Wolves not measuring up? How about doubling the gem cost and number of wolves summoned (thus requiring fewer mages for the same wolf output)? Or how about a new water summon? Giant turtles perhaps (amphibious, size 6, very high protection, high strength bite attack)? Yetis (high hp, strength, size 3, moderate protection, cold resistant, claws+bite, you get a nice sized pack with each summon)? I think the change in seasonals was intended to move the game away from massing ethereal summons. But there's no reason that corporeal summons can't be strong and cheap enough to make a nice supplement to a conventional army.

Conceptually, sea trolls are fine, but their stats seem to not measure up.

Some have already suggested a ritual that makes all troops in a given province amphibious (either for a limited time, or permanently). Or how about a one-province Version of Thetis Blessing (spending extra gems to set the duration like Astral Window)? These could help water nations bring their aquatic troops onto land, or help a land nation invade the ocean.

Where are the items that let a commander take aquatic troops onto land? Amulet of the Fish will let Auluudh or a Nerid come out to play, but not bring Sea Serpents, War Lobsters or Crab Hybrids with them.

Passive ability: Every path of magic gives its mages some ability. Nature gives supply, fire gives leadership and attack, earth gives protection, death gives fear and undead leadership, etc. Water gives water breathing to the mage and ONE unit per level of water magic. This is, frankly, pathetic, especially on a path that is already among the weakest in most other areas. Instead, why not let a water mage bring ALL his troops underwater? Most mages have low leadership anyway, but the few who have good leadership (or +leadership items) can lead whole armies underwater. Or at least raise it to 5-10 troops (or 10 total size of troops) per level of water magic. One unit per level is horrible, even if the unit is a Crusher or similar expensive summon (of a non-water path, I don't see any water unit that would be worth bringing).


I'm not sure that all these suggestions (and those of others on this thread) should be implemented at once - it might be too much. But I think there's a clear consensus that water magic is less useful than other paths, especially against cold immune opponents (cold is the most common immunity I think, even more common than poison - and nature has *plenty* of other uses). Adding more spells and items seems to be something that Illwinter enjoys doing, and if it both adds variety to the game and improves game balance, so much the better.

[Chris Byler]

Oh, and I also like Reflect (works like Air Shield but deflects spells?) and Waterway (which, IMO, should work to/from any coastal or sea province - possibly with a restriction to prevent it becoming the new Dom I Gateway, such as destination must be friendly dominion or under friendly control).

A large area Sailors' Death might be effective too. That'll make your opponents wish they had invested in Antimagic.

A Mass Desiccation might be good too - doesn't affect inanimates but does affect cold immunes.

Also, both Desiccation and Sailors' Death seem to have excessive path requirements for their effect (Desiccation only gradually increases fatigue, Sailors' Death has moderate precision and both are negated by MR and don't affect inanimates). Why not 1 for Desiccation, 2 for Sailors' Death?

Finally, a question for Illwinter - was water magic *intended* to be nearly useless against undead, to represent its opposition to fire magic which is very strong vs. undead? Or is that just a side effect of so many water spells being cold based or not affecting inanimate targets?

[Endoperez]

Water is the path of Balance, it is the element that evens things. Water should have more spells that are the oopposites of each other. Flood and heavy storms on the other hand, then draught, then the gentle rains of spring that let the world grow again...

The rain spells tilting the scale to Growth or Death seems like a good idea to me. Maybe even a spell causing fresh, growth-abiding rains in spring and summer, crop-destroying storms on autumn and cold blizzards in winter?

Also, Water form is a nice idea. Water Elementals really need something like that! It could even increase gradually, with even 50% reduction on damage being possible. That should only be for some special summons, like Water Elementals, that would have low/no protection... 20% seems good for protectiona spell. As it works best versus high damage, it would be most useful on a strong creature fighting versus strong creature(s). Sc vs Jotuns? Or even SC vs SC!

Also, I really like how Water Elementals are Ice Elementals instead in cold provinces. Does anyone have ideas for morphing monsters?

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

Rituals: Winter Wolves not measuring up? How about doubling the gem cost and number of wolves summoned (thus requiring fewer mages for the same wolf output)?

I dislike how Winter Wolves were doubly nerfed in the change from Dom I to Dom II, they have had their cost doubled (this is OK, same as the other Seasonals), but they _additionally_ lost their 'weather influenced' stats, so they have much poorer at, def & str in cold provinces.

[ April 19, 2004, 18:35: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Vicious Love]

Too many of these suggestions would make water too much like the other paths. The sort of battlefield mojo suggested here really sounds more like fire magic, and the overland population killers/economy disrupters are already present in plenty of other paths. Methinks we should make what water already has more powerful, rather than making all the other paths less unique and ruining water's style and the strategies associated with it in the process.
The Waterways spell is definitely fifthed, and reflection definitely fits water's symbolic aspect, though I worry about balance issues.
The water path peripheral benefit is definitely the feeblest of them all, but allowing water mages to bring 5-10 units underwater with them might ruin the water races' home court advantage, and make certain higher levels spells kinda useless. Besides, water mages can already supplement native oceanic troops with kickass aquatic summons the moment a land nation has a foothold in the sea.
I'd much rather see water mages get either a defense bonus, or something a bit more useful for non-melee mages, though I'm not entirely sure what.
If entirely new types of spell really are necessary, there's plenty that water symbolizes which isn't quite covered by the other paths, such as the adapatability/malleability/motion/fluid gooeyness evident in Quickness and in the Masters of the Way, coupled with the serenity also seen in the Masters, but not readily apparent in any actual spells.
If you positively must rip off the other paths, there're probably things that can be done with scrying that retain that watery touch, rather than being pure astral.

[PvK]

Good point, V.L..

I bet a group quickness high-level water spell that cost water gems would be an effective addition.

I think Ice fortresses are a neat idea, though they should probably only work in cold provinces.

An Ice Wall spell to block land access (and supply and gold and resources via castles) to a province might be interesting too. It would have a strength based on the number of gems put into it, and get worn down both by heat scale and by units trying to enter (using their seige ability). Might be more work for IW than it's worth, though. Maybe a Dom3 idea.

Edit: Oh, and here's an amusing idea for a combat spell that would only work (best?) in cold provinces: Snowball - a growing rolling snowball that rolls through enemy formations trampling them...

PvK

[ April 19, 2004, 20:38: Message edited by: PvK ]