National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics

[Taqwus]

If somebody does substantial research and site searching, they *should* get something which isn't terribly bothered by light infantry that could have been purchased from the get-go. That's the whole point.
That said, between Curse, the large number of affliction-causing items, and the availability of AP power (Weapons of Sharpness doesn't even cost a gem, for instance), the finite equipment slots, the existence of specific counters like the unresistable Wither Bones, and pure ugliness like Gifts from Heaven or even Gate Cleaver, nothing's invulnerable.
Even a Tartarian with an outrageously good kit isn't a meaningful threat if somebody's just lopped off both its arms with Picas and Procas, and somebody else hit it a couple of times with Vision's Foe.

[Jasper]

To be blunt, if you find national mages and troops useless in the late game, than you need to improve your tactics.

They are certainly less usefull than early on, and the later you get the more magic dominates -- but even so mundane troops and mages have a substantial impact -- IMHO if you neglect them you are much more likely to lose.

If on the other hand you and your friends would just like mundane troops to be more usefull and prevalent -- just change the settings!

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Tris:
Hmmm - one way would be to have a spell which locked the caster and its target into Stasis, for as long as the spell was maintained.

This spell already exists. It paralyzes anything unresistably in combat, and is called "PETRIFY". No form of immunity or MR can protect against this: It always paralyzes at worst, and costs no gems: You can just keep casting it ad infinitum.

[Kel]

To be fair, at 5E, Petrify is not particularly easy to cast for most nations.

- Kel

[Vynd]

I agree with the sentiment that SCs should not be the be all and end all of this game. I think that one aspect of a good strategy game is that there are multiple ways to win, and if the only strategy for winning Dominions II is with SCs then it's not meeting that standard.

But by that same token, I don't think it is right to argue that things should be changed such that it becomes impossible to follow a SC strategy, and that everyone should have to rely on national troops. That is just swapping SCs for national troops at the top of the heap. The best thing for the game, in my opnion, is a rough balance in which it is possible to pursue either of these (or some entirely different) strategy, and have a chance to win.

It does seem like things are out of balance, as I've defined it, and that SCs are the best thing going right now. Perhaps it would help if there were more ways to boost the strength of national troops. As others have pointed out, these never really get any better than they were at the start of the game. Well maybe if there were more spells that buffed up Groups of conventional units, they'd be more attractive. There could even be magic items that a commander could use to aid his men in battle, ala Standards.

Another idea would be to have settings that one could adjust during God creation that would result in better national troops, but at a price that would prevent you from getting a powerful SC Pretender at the same time. Like, say, a 250 point national theme (is that what they're called, I forget...) that would give your nation a set of national troops that are much more powerful than the norm.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Kel:
To be fair, at 5E, Petrify is not particularly easy to cast for most nations.

There are other, easier options. Many nations have access to astral-2 mages (even astral-1 will do with a Banner of the NS) who can cast Stellar Cascades, and if you bring enough of them (5 will usually do), the offending SC won't even have the time to cast his/her buffs. If it's a VQ, even better - whoever can cast Stellar Cascades can finish her off with Solar Rays.

And that's just an example.

[Endoperez]

Maybe something on the line with Niefel Giants? If you want a nation with strong mundane troops, take Jotunheim and if the "basic" Jotuns are not enough for you take Niefelheim. It doesn't even cost 250 design points, and you get 120 points from the cold scale even though the Last one hits your income a little.