Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?

[HotNifeThruButr]

Pangaea's units, even New Era ones, seem to make up for low armor and poor arms with a higher strength (I believe satyrs are 11 or 12 strength), meaning higher attack to make up for crappy spears and a high hp (14 to a satyr or centaur, I haven't played Pangaea in a long time).

[Kristoffer O]

>Perhaps. Hoplites just feel to me like they should be the strength of the theme. As it stands now the only unit that looks really useable to me is the Cataphract (assuming it's meant to have a light lance)

Hoplite improvement seems good. Light satyr inf should probably be empowered for the sake of default pan rather than for new era.

>I resolutely disagree: they suck. Other than the awe they have nothing going for them, and the awe is off greatly diminishing use against troops with > 10 morale. They would be stronger in melee with a few extra points of defense instead.

>By way of comparison, they are not in anyway even close in power to Sidhe, the closest comparable troop I could think of, yet they cost more.

DH were mass tested without blessings vs ulmish infantry and stood their ground. But you are right, they are much more expensive than sidhe.

>In general I think the power of low levels of awe 0 is overrated, although it's quite effective at higher levels.

We at illwinter are awed by awe and fear it greatly. No other special effect is given as much undeserved respect.

>Just a thought. They'd have to have white skin anyway, which would be more work.



>I agree, it's better to balance factions than units. However, to make up for their unfair costing you have to really strengthen NE in other areas to make them viable.

Hmm. 'Really' seems a bit strong. They are weaker, but to 'really' strenghten them seems a bit too much.

>Oh, and I definitely think NE Pan should have EENN instead of ENNN. This would make a huge difference!

I'm being more positive by the minute

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

>Hoplite improvement seems good. Light satyr inf should probably be empowered for the sake of default pan rather than for new era.

I concur. IMHO Arallen's mod does a good job of this.

>DH were mass tested without blessings vs ulmish infantry and stood their ground. But you are right, they are much more expensive than sidhe.

I never thought ulmish infantry were so good, although I guess they are middle of the pack. Plus, they're exactly the sort of thing that Dryad's would be best against.

Still, I'm surprised the DH were even gold for gold with Ulmish infantry. Outnumbered 5 to 1, I just can't see how they'd keep up.

>We at illwinter are awed by awe and fear it greatly. No other special effect is given as much undeserved respect.

*Grin* Well put. ;-) ;-)

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Jasper:
-ulmish sytle resistance to drain?

I'd rather have resistance to turmoil actually, since it might fit better.

That would be great, except the requirements of NE is Order 1, Production 1

[tinkthank]

I'd sort of not like resistance to drain, if only because I think nations shouldnt have "special" abilities of the others' (drain resistance, conscription, resistance to death, etc.). I think a slight reduction in the cost of dryad hoplites without increasing their power is more than enough, plus a change to the NNEE pan. Keeping the Harpy Queen is also a nice idea.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Jasper:
Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

>DH were mass tested without blessings vs ulmish infantry and stood their ground. But you are right, they are much more expensive than sidhe.

I never thought ulmish infantry were so good, although I guess they are middle of the pack. Plus, they're exactly the sort of thing that Dryad's would be best against.

Still, I'm surprised the DH were even gold for gold with Ulmish infantry. Outnumbered 5 to 1, I just can't see how they'd keep up.

Maybe the Ulmsmen get to pay full fatigue even when they fail to attack? Or if the masses were large enough, they might be unable to bring their full strength to bear on a smaller body of individually superior troops. Of course, this assumes that DH were able to damage Ulmish infantry at all, I don't see how they could without a strong Blood blessing or Fire 9.

Anyway, a unit that relies on awe to survive is not only vulnerable to missiles and magic, but also to mindless troops, and if it's a modest level of awe, anything with high morale (btw - do the starvation and dominion modifiers to morale affect awe rolls? What about the battle fright affliction?) Awe is not an effective main line of defense even at very high levels because there are so many forms of attack that ignore it completely.

Defense is bad enough as a main line of defense, but awe is even worse - everything that ignores defense also ignores awe, *and* several more things ignore or are only slightly affected by awe.

>We at illwinter are awed by awe and fear it greatly. No other special effect is given as much undeserved respect.

*Grin* Well put. ;-) ;-)

Well, you at Illwinter need higher morale then. I suggest some experience, blessing, or the heroic valor ability.

Of course, being mindless would solve your awe problem, but create some other problems.


At any rate, if NE Pangaea is intended to be a third-rate magical nation, they need to be first-rate military. Centaurs with composite bows? Cataphracts with lances? Minotaurs with throwing axes, or just better training (i.e. improved attack and defense) than the old era minotaurs? Satyr Crossbowmen? Giving them strong heavy troops would fit well with the concept of the theme and their required Productivity scale.