Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

[PhilD]

I like Chris' idea, but then, like PDF, I like to play these weak pretenders, so...

[Cohen]

I'm up for empowering the humans pretenders ...
I like to play a lot with them ... but how to say ... what do you think when they become killed from a "seeking arrow"?
A pretender god not so godly.

They've no skill in combat.
And effectively haven't that great advantage on other Gods cause lower starting Dominion and no starting path ...

I'll change to ALL pretenders New Path Cost and Magic Level acquiring is different.

Simply the 1st level added to the chassis base is New Path Cost.
The second level is New Path Cost*2, or 3/2.
The third should be New Path Cost*3, or 2.

And so on.
Reviewing all the New Paths Costs this should be nice ... even if this idea is similar to those of the % costs.
_________________________________________________
This is for what concern Magic.
The other problem is their phisical weakness.
Immortality should be fine ... but perhaps too strong.

Because they're often Rainbow ... they'll lose a lot of Magic by Death. I'll grant immunity to this.
However they're still killed easily.
Cause they're weak and not prepared to Hand to Hand, I suggest only a little improvement in their stats. And that all should have a magic defence from rituals like seeking arrows, and so on. Probably they're skilled in magic ... so on if they've at least the same magic level of the ritual casted [or of the Caster] (ie 3 air for the Magic Arrow, or more if a more powerful air mage has casted) they "dispel it automatically" ...
This is to choose if only those targetting them, or the province (mmm the arrow probably is heading to someone near him or he can perceive the spell incoming.). In that case the human pretender should be a sort of mobile Air Dome.

Alternative ^^ House Rule: All human Pretenders.
(however seeking arrows, horrors, earth elementals and so on kills them easily unless in late game ... wish for power, total item equipped and so on)
_________________________________________________
Reducing only the starting cost wouldn't help at all ... having 20 30 points more? What's that ... 1 magic level more or 1 dominion level more ... too small.
_________________________________________________E diting after having read the post above.
The VQ base cost doesn't matter for Ermor til he can earn 600 points from bad scales ^^ and Mictlan too ...

[ May 02, 2004, 05:52: Message edited by: Cohen ]

[Slygar]

all I can say is up with the humanoids, down with the vampire queens. Not to hijack this into yet another vq thread, but their costing the same as any of their undead immortal pretender competition (such as the bog mummy and lich) but being so obviously superior in almost every way is pretty ridiculous. They should cost 200 IMHO.

[ May 02, 2004, 05:47: Message edited by: Slygar ]

[Teraswaerto]

There are ways to protect the RB against all the assassination spells. There is no need to make them innately immune to them.

Likewise, immortality would be too much. It is something reserved for powerful undead creatures (and the Phoenix). As human mages seeking ascendancy through sheer bredth of knowledge and sleigh of hand they are supposed to be physically fragile.

Making them cost less overall (base cost, path cost, dominion cost, one or more of these) would be enough.

[Endoperez]

If human-sized mage pretender dies and is recalled, he shouldn't lose one from his all paths. Maybe 1 point from three random paths, but not one from every one! And it could be even less, depending on how IW sees things.

This would take care of the biggest problem with rainbows: they wouldn't become useless after a single arrow. 40 priest-turns of preaching to get back something that is only barely better than 8 sages with different randoms? With big ones, even if he has no magic left he would still be useable as a supercombatant.

So little to no loss on losing your pretender? Better to kill them off than try to cure their afflictions?

Personally, I don't feel those fit the Category. Neither does Immortality, or anything of that nature.

Lowering costs and increasing starting Dominion are in my mind more applicable. Even giving all human pretenders not on a horse Stealthy would, to me, feel more at home. I would rather see a prevalance of non-human "SC" Pretenders, than lowering the costs so much that it's more cost effective and gem effective to use Rainbows.

Perhaps giving base casting abilities centered around their inital Path might be more limiting and less game changing. Or perhaps a Focus of Magic based on their initial magic. I don't know if it's codable, but certainly better than slapping Immortality on every one and making the end game even more ungodly unbearable for invading forces.

[SelfishGene]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Some of the Demigod chassis options are also very overpriced.

I can understand your perspective but im uncertain if some of the Titan chassis are underpowered or just being used improperly. Those with weak magic skills but decent dominion still have good hit points and strength. The Prince of Death has far better inherent protection but less than half the hitpoints and is undead, giving it another vulnerability. I see the 50 point Pretenders to be just average choices, when you want some magic and blessings but don't want to give up many points or choose a cheap, weak body. Although ill be honest none of these uninspired, underpowered Titans make me want to choose them over a Moloch or PoD, who can reach magic-9 much cheaper.

Rainbows aren't completely worthless. Reaping 20-30 gems a turn by turn twenty through natural sites, not globals or clams alone, infuses your economy with enormous potential and a trove whose value is hard to measure. Their high research more quickly reaches a desired spell or path, especially early.

But to fulfill their true potential as forgers and ritual casters, you really need a 3-path instead of a cheaper 2-path. At 2 even with forging you'll be hard pressed to get any path above 5. At 3 you'll have even more gems and an be even closer to the 'global cap'. But a true 3 costs virtually every point you're given, and a bloodless 3 only slightly better. Of course you can and should make compromises, increase and decrease paths and not rigidly stick to a uniform distribution.

But the question is: is a 3-Path Rainbow worth 492 points for what it does? Forfeiting an amazing 12 scale steps, four whole scales, for that privilege? Is that worth missing out on 3-Magic, 3-Order, 3-Growth, 3-Productivity?

You might think im leading up towards a resounding no, but im really not. But the base human chassis are generally insufficient. Some unique humanoids are generally better in every way; the Divine Emperor looks like another sucker, and without any hand slots to boot, but he has 2-Dom, 1 Astral and 4 misc. slots, making him an uber ritual caster. But others, like the Arch-Druid, have no meaningful advantage.

Were i to be asked for suggestions to improve them these would be my responses;


All Humanoid cost -25 (includes unique chassis).

Also each should have perhaps 2 or 3 additional magic paths, even the Crone. Something thematic and appropriate of course.

Consider -

Crone: 1 Astral, 1 Death, 1 Water
Great Sage: 1 Air, 1 Fire, 1 Water
Frost Father: 2 Water, 1 Air, 1 Earth
Enchantress: 2 Astral, 1 Fire, 1 Earth
Freak Lord: 1 Death, 1 Nature, 1 Blood

ect,...

This might be too much when you hit the blessing threshold around 4. Total savings should probably be around about 50-75 points.

[ May 02, 2004, 07:46: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]