Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem

[JaydedOne]

Originally posted by Kel:
Ethereal is a con-4, 2S item. Personally, I don't think it really means much at all to remove that, given her other varied and copious defenses.

- Kel

It means she doesn't get to wear Elemental Armor. That means a lot.

[Vynd]

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
In Dom vampires are immortal, ethereal, and can fly. Increased cost, decreased starting dominion, increased cost to get new paths. One or more of these would do the trick.

I think that 0 encumbrance is an important part of the VQ's arsenal, too. And Drain Life as her natural weapon doesn't help matters.

Of course besides all the stuff that makes the VQ a great SC, she also starts with 1 Death 2 Blood magic. And she gets free vampires from time to time. And she's stealthy, and... But I digress.

[Blitz]

I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums. Everyone else sees, "I gotta get me one of these", and tries it. And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.

- Norfleet

Anyone else notice that the biggest defenders of the VQ are the ones that play her in almost every game? Yes, I'm aware that you probably know more ways to deal with this nuisance than most, having spent significant time playing her.

The point you are either missing, or ignoring because adressing it would change the way you "like to play" is this: Just because you can handle something does not mean it's not overpowered when taken in the context of the game. Your arguments sound a lot like someone who is arguing that longbows are not better than slingers by pointing out the weaknesses of longbows. The frailties of longbowmen do not change the fact that they are, in every respect superior to a slinger, so much so that no Man player will ever buy a slinger.

I do not want to personally attack you Norfleet, I'm rather new here and I don't try to start flamewars... but ask yourself this. Would you use the same VQ chassis if it cost 150 points instead of 110? I suspect the answer is yes. Would you still use her if she lost a misc slot? Probably. Idealy this game should be so well balanced that losing any of her attributes would make another unit superior, this clearly isn't the case with the VQ. Losing flying won't make the lich better. Losing immortality won't make her less useful than the ghost king.

That's the problem with your favorite chassis Norfleet. She's too cheap for what she does. Immortality, Earthrealness, Flying, Life drain, Cold resistance, poison resistance, fear, regeneration, stealth. Take ANY of that away and she's still a steal at 110 points... and that my friend is the problem, not the inability of players to kill her on turn 40.

[Slygar]

I really really think the VQ needs to cost more and have a way higher path cost.

I was going to put a bunch of comparisons here, but you guys probably know what everything is anyways. Just ask yourselves which you *really* fear more: A father of serpents, a Titan, or a Cyclops (which all cost *more* than a VQ, in case you forget) or.. a VQ. Or, just open up the Lich and compare it to the VQ, which costs the same. No stealth, no etherealness, no flight, no regeneration, no free ethereal flying commander killing hippies. Oh yeah, you get -2 lesser fear instead of -4. Whee.

The fact that a VQ is killable does not make it balanced or reasonably priced. I have played using nearly all pretenders, and the VQ is definately the strongest I have found. Yes, there are ways to kill them in MP (the Ai is horrid at it) but they are still way tougher than their cost would show. I say 175 for the chassis, 60 path cost. All those goofy plans to balance it by changing it around seem kind of pointless.

Incidentally, why is the Master Lich so much crappier than the Lich? I think their stats got reversed..

[ May 03, 2004, 21:07: Message edited by: Slygar ]

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
Ghost Kings, however, are not immortal; so a Ghost King SC can pay a fairly hefty price when slain in terms of both magic loss and temporary unavailability. Nor, if memory serves, do they natively fly. They shouldn't be recklessly risked on battles at potentially suicidal odds while expanding at the expense of the local independents.

True, a VQ is superior in many respects to a GK... the main one being Immortality.

However, it wasn't really my intention to debate the merits of a Ghost King vs. a Vampire Queen... I mainly meant that they are similar in that with minimal research/forging they both can slice right through independents with nary a scratch.... and with more research/forging (ie Phoenix Pyre/Soul Vortex + Elemental Armor) they are dominant SC's in the late game who have few weaknesses.

So if one nerfs the VQ to the point of weakness, expect to see the same template moved over to the Ghost King.

[Blitz]

Incidentally, why is the Master Lich so much crappier than the Lich? I think their stats got reversed..

The Master Lich is 20 points cheaper and has THREE misc slots. He's no Vampire Queen, but he's my favorite pretender.

[Blitz]

So if one nerfs the VQ to the point of weakness, expect to see the same template moved over to the Ghost King.

Precicely my point. The GK is almost like a nerfed VQ. It loses the blood magic, Flying, Lifedrain, Immortality, Regeneration and is a whopping 20 points cheaper.

If the VQ were to vanish from existance, you would still see ghost kings out there filling the same role. The GK is a very strong chassis, it's just that most players don't think 20 points is too high a price to pay for flying, immortality, life drain, regeneration, and blood magic.

Hell, I'd pay 20 points just for the flying. The rest is just insanity.

edit: The GK also has a much higher defense value. Please do not try to argue that this equates to immortality or any such nonsense.

[ May 03, 2004, 21:23: Message edited by: Blitz ]