Dev Thinking on Balance?

Originally posted by Cainehill:
First, by that logic : I never use crones, and I lose all my games. Therefor, crones are overpowered. Second - no slight intended to Zen, but if he's winning 95% of all his MP games, he needs to try swimming in a bigger pond. Especially given diplomacy and alliances, I'd be amazed if anyone was winning 95% in a range of games / players.

That's nice of you to say, but I think it's you, who needs to swim in a bigger pond. You can lose all your games playing a VQ as well, that takes as much skill as losing with a Crone. You may be surprised but that's fine, it is precisely diplomacy and alliances why you can win 95% of your games.

Again - no insult meant to Jasper, nor Zen, nor anyother beta tester. But Beta Testers tend to think they know how the game is supposed to work, therefor they have foregone conclusions, prejudices, and don't really push the envelope.

No insult ment to Newbies, but they often have no idea what they are talking about at any given moment in time and constantly contridict themselves. Beta Testers are there to help provide a service and give perspective to the design of the game, not to whine about personal preference or playstyle.

And yep, there are other pretenders almost as good as the VQ - maybe even better. But there's only one AllFather in any game, and only one Carrion Dragon, and 13 VQs.

So if there are as many as good, maybe even better, why isn't the crusade to nerf them in full effect? Is it because you've been beaten with a VQ more often than the others? Or that it's easier to do for more nations? By your example, noone at all plays Rainbows or Bless Effects, only VQ's and combat pretenders. Which unfortunately is not the case so there must be a flaw in either your argument or your experiences.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
If you think about it, a beta-tester is almost certain to deny an alleged imbalance. If he agreed, then the imbalance would have been eliminated in the beta-testing.

That might be for huge budget games or maybe alot of other companies, but even the Developers for IW either state they didn't think of it, or didn't care/have enough time for something that they later find imbalanced. I'm fairly certain that most of the Beta Testers would fully admit if something they feel is genuinely wrong or inbalanced if they didn't happen to catch it. I may be giving too much credit, but considering how Dom2 came about and is progressing I don't think so.

[ May 04, 2004, 05:44: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Zapmeister]

By your example, noone at all plays Rainbows or Bless Effects, only VQ's and combat pretenders. Which unfortunately is not the case so there must be a flaw in either your argument or your experiences.

Obviously, Cainehill exaggerated to make the point, which is that VQs are disproportionally popular. And to my mind, that's the only real point worth making.

If, for whatever reason, people continue to prefer the VQ when they're playing to win, then clearly the game would be improved if something were done to reduce the frequency at which it is selected.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
If, for whatever reason, people continue to prefer the VQ when they're playing to win, then clearly the game would be improved if something were done to reduce the frequency at which it is selected.

If they are playing VQ's to win and they don't, does that mean that it isn't the design's fault but the player?

I understand completely if something becomes too popular then it needs to be looked at for reasons and back before the rehashing and second rehashing I believe at the very least I said that modifying the VQ's cost to 125 and 50 would be a good change. It wouldn't change the fact that Ermor or a Temperature nation could make high-powered VQ's but it would put them on par with each of the other 'designed for combat' pretenders.

So maybe it has been addressed and there may be a change in the works, but going to extremes over and over is in no way, benefitial to a cause.

Edit: And no I don't think you were Zap, I think you just want to know if anything is being done about them, not whether or not your personal preference is being implemented.

[ May 04, 2004, 05:52: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Zapmeister]

If they are playing VQ's to win and they don't, does that mean that it isn't the design's fault but the player?

Certainly. But if the popularity continues over a period of time (which I believe it has) then it means they probably are winning.

And even if it doesn't, the persistent popularity is a problem in itself, regardless of what causes it, because it reduces the diversity of pretenders in the game.

[Pirateiam]

No insult ment to Newbies, but they often have no idea what they are talking about at any given moment in time and constantly contridict themselves. Beta Testers are there to help provide a service and give perspective to the design of the game, not to whine about personal preference or playstyle.

A "good" Beta testers job is also to take ideas, constructive criticism and possible problems that players (customers) have possibly uncovered and put them to tests with an open mind. It is not to degrade ideas and take a better than thou attitude. I have an open mind, run some test games with betas and come back with a fair conclusions. If this is not currently being done for Ilwinter you are not doing your job. Please refrain from throwing the "newbie" slam around also it does not reflect well on you.

[Norfleet]

If every game played strictly to win will have 3 or 4 VQs, doesn't that mean that every game, 2-4 VQs will fail to win? That's not a terribly encouraging success ratio, and seems more like people trying to imitate somebody else's strategy without understanding the finer nuances of it, apeing only the most visible element without any of the underlying strategy.

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
A "good" Beta testers job is also to take ideas, constructive criticism and possible problems that players (customers) have possibly uncovered and put them to tests with an open mind. It is not to degrade ideas and take a better than thou attitude. I have an open mind, run some test games with betas and come back with a fair conclusions. If this is not currently being done for Ilwinter you are not doing your job. Please refrain from throwing the "newbie" slam around also it does not reflect well on you.

You assume this hasn't been done, as if a month ago when it surfaced it wasn't given a few preliminary tests. Or if it wasn't tested when it was first created in Dom2. I don't have to take ideas to IW, because IW reads these Boards. If a Beta Tester thinks something is a good idea (like say Arralen's Pangaea Mod) then they will try to lean on it to see if the Developers would like it.

If you'd like to assume that Beta Testers only put their own feelings and don't take both sides, there is nothing anyone will say that will convince you otherwise. It's not a them vs you, it's a concentrated effort.

You also have to look at it from IW's point of view. Maybe they don't think there is a problem or there is enough reasonable doubt to not make whatever changes happen to be foaming at the mouth. All KO has to say is "Thematic" and if it's set, it doesn't matter how many arguments you throw at it, it is thematic to him and it's his game and I respect that. If I have a real problem with it, you can Mod it.

[ May 04, 2004, 06:05: Message edited by: Zen ]