Dev Thinking on Balance?

[Kel]

What makes a VQ a poor late game SC ? Please read on before responding !

Now, I can see where she might be a mediocre late game SC, due entirely due to her low(for an SC) hp. Otoh, her immortality goes some way to compensate for this.

I can see that you can more reliably put expensive equipment on a higher HP pretender but the number of built in effects on the VQ again, does something to compensate for this.

Maybe not entirely. I mean late, late game, I would rather have an artifact equipped, high HP chassis, I think.

But if VQ is the best early/mid game SC, how does she compare to other early/mid game chasses ? That is, if she is better than a white bull, say, in the early game and the mid game, instead of comparing her to specific late game pretenders, shouldn't we be comparing her to those early and mid game ones ?

IE, *if* she is better than some pretenders in the early game, the middle game AND the late game (after taking cost of paths and everything else into account, natch), that would classify her as being over-powered, clearly. I am not saying she is or is not better but to say that she is not better than every pretender in every situation in every phase of the game isn't really much of a declaration at all. A lot of the arguments about why she is not over-powered have focused on why she isn't invincible and that's a red herring.

- Kel

[Kel]

Originally posted by Jasper:
I discretely polled around of those whom I believe to be the best players, and they all agree, while those who disagree are unknown to me.

Hehe, I am not disagreeing with you on the subject but that's a pretty dismissive thing to say. Rude, even. This 'Old Boys Club' have a public roster somewhere ?

- Kel

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Kel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jasper:
I discretely polled around of those whom I believe to be the best players, and they all agree, while those who disagree are unknown to me.

Hehe, I am not disagreeing with you on the subject but that's a pretty dismissive thing to say. Rude, even. This 'Old Boys Club' have a public roster somewhere ?

- Kel

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Yup. They also meet every third week in an old pub somewhere in Detroit to discuss how to govern the world without newbies noticing.

Those Jasper believes to be the best players are probably people he knows from MP games since the days of Dom1. A bit rude perhaps, but there were some remarks on the betas that were a bit rude as well.

[Catquiet]

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:

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Originally posted by Catquiet:
The Vampire Queen can have 30 protection, quickness, 18+ attack and defense, damage shields, and immunity to all elemental damage without any equipment at all. Add an armor piercing life drain attack which heals HPs + restores fatigue whenever she damages an enemy and you have an enemy that regains health faster than you can damage her. The VQ is not a game breaker but she does give more power for the points than any other pretender.

IMHO you exaggerate your case. How are you getting 18+ attack and defense without equipment? How do you manage to cast invulnerability, quickness, several damage shields, and 3 elemental immunities?

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18 Attack and Defence? The VQ starts at 12, quickness give +3 att/+3 def, and the VQ racks up experience very quickly for the other +3.

Well you can't have several damage shields at once with total elemental immuntity. But she is already immune to cold and poison, so you do have room for one damage shield. (quickness),(invulnerability),(resist fire),(resist lightning), (astral shield or fire shield or soul vortex).

And you will rarely be facing an army with both fire and lightning attacks so you can switch one or both of those resist spells for a damage shield in most cases.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jasper:
I discretely polled around of those whom I believe to be the best players, and they all agree, while those who disagree are unknown to me.

Hehe, I am not disagreeing with you on the subject but that's a pretty dismissive thing to say. Rude, even. This 'Old Boys Club' have a public roster somewhere ?

- Kel

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No, it's not meant to be dismissive. It's simply that there are some people who's skill I know, and many others who's skill I do not know. People who's skill I do not know need to make a compelling argument to convince me, which IMHO has not been done.

My main point is that I don't think a compelling argument for clam's brokeness has been made, and that I feel that the counter points have not been addressed. A secondary point is is that I'm not just relying upon my own opinion, and have considered this seriously.

[ May 04, 2004, 17:59: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kel:
Now, I can see where she might be a mediocre late game SC, due entirely due to her low(for an SC) hp. Otoh, her immortality goes some way to compensate for this.

I entirely agree.

But if VQ is the best early/mid game SC, how does she compare to other early/mid game chasses ?

I don't think she is. She can be good, but there are others at least as good.

[ May 04, 2004, 18:03: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Catquiet:
18 Attack and Defence? The VQ starts at 12, quickness give +3 att/+3 def, and the VQ racks up experience very quickly for the other +3.

Well you can't have several damage shields at once with total elemental immuntity. But she is already immune to cold and poison, so you do have room for one damage shield. (quickness),(invulnerability),(resist fire),(resist lightning), (astral shield or fire shield or soul vortex).

Hence my point that you are exaggerating, if only a bit.

I would point out that these things you mention are not extraordinary, but rather commonplace or even a bit weak in a combat pretender -- especially once you take equipment into account.

[ May 04, 2004, 18:07: Message edited by: Jasper ]