SCs other than the vq

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
How does one conquer ermorian castles defended by an uber VQ? other than by creating a vast world-wide alliance w/ a dozen committed armies...

The VQ is not the ultimate warrior for SC vs. SC combat: The VQ excels primarily in the destruction of enemy troops, preferrably living: Against non-living, particularly cold immune troops, the VQ's ability to kill is hampered by her generally mediocre strength and attack values: Combat will expire before she can even kill two dozen Jot woodsmen with N9 bless, or about a hundred ghouls.

Ermorian castles are tougher nuts to crack, but the great expense of Ermorian castles does slightly impede consolidation speed due to their longer construction times and greater cost, combined with Ermor's lack of income, even after accounting for not having to pay upkeep or buy troops any kind. This is one reason why Rabe has a larger empire than I do.

However, all you have to do is strike at an Ermorian castle with sufficient force to begin damaging the gates. Cast Crumble, and you'll have an instant breach, if you felt your regular army was not enough to breach. Do this in more than one place, and the defender will be forced to choose which province receives the aid of his pretender.

Now second-guess him: Which one do you think he'll choose to defend, based on his present location, dominion, and strategic overview.

Don't storm that castle, or withdraw completely. If the VQ teleports in, it's now stuck in that castle, and must decide whether to immediately teleport to the next hotspot, or attempt to sally and wipe out the attackers alone: Since friendly movement occurs first, if you withdraw, his VQ will encounter no resistance and have fruitlessly wasted two turns.

What can you do in two turns? Siege and storm a castle elsewhere. Congratulations. You've just cost him a castle while losing next to nothing. Wasn't that so nice of him to build you a castle to protect your new temple with?

Sooner or later, you'll be able to force your way to the capitol. He *WILL* defend that. Be sure you have a plan to kill his pretender there. Now that you have the capitol occupied....bye-bye immortality.

Originally posted by archaeolept:
I'm quite amazed by how clueless the beta-testers seem to be about all this. I guess this is just an endemic problem w/ any small closed community - certain activities will become standard, and new variants just won't occur to those living inside the gates.

Are you sure this isn't what's happening to YOU? I seem to notice that you've played many of your games against, well, me. In fact, you cite my own VQ as the canonical example. Are you sure it is not YOU who needs to get out more?

Originally posted by archaeolept:
She has the same name every game since Norfleet has no need to ever redesign her.

Actually, I've done several redesigns, but I've kept the name. Why? Because I'm terrible at names. Have you seen how I name my mages? So once I like the name, I keep it.

[ May 04, 2004, 21:41: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Jasper:
In any event, IMHO you underestimate the power of Dust to Dust and Wither Bones. Wither Bones in particular will make short work of 20-30 undead fodder.

Yes, it will, but then your mages won't cast it on her because your own skeletons are also in the area of effect. The same thing happens with dust to dust I've found.

Moreover, you are counting on opponents not casting effective spells after their scripts run out, which IMHO is not reliable.

I've had 10 astral 2 mages cast paralyze for a dozen turns in a row instead of casting solar rays.

IMHO this is not sufficient to magically keep people from invading.

It usually is till around turn 30, and if you can keep people out till turn 40 or 50, your level 9 spells start to show up.

[archaeolept]

of course there are many ways to deal w/ a VQ. however, none of them really do anything, since she pops up again immediately. yah, dust to dust can work, especially en masse. Another SC can work, as long as you've been pursuing a clam/wish strategy as well such that you can stand up to her "magic power" X5 and "power". oh, and also when your pretender is killed, as will happen some good percentage of the time, you gotta pay the price. Not the VQ though.

Are you sure this isn't what's happening to YOU? I seem to notice that you've played many of your games against, well, me. In fact, you cite my own VQ as the canonical example. Are you sure it is not YOU who needs to get out more?

given the large number of public games around here that you play in, it would be rather difficult to avoid you.

[ May 04, 2004, 21:51: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I've had 10 astral 2 mages cast paralyze for a dozen turns in a row instead of casting solar rays.

This is clearly the fault of the stupid spellcasting AI (which fails to consider odds of success when picking a spell, and does not sufficiently prioritize killing things), and the damnable 5-spell script limit, which in combination with the above, basically assures that most mages will not do anything intelligent past either the 3rd, or 5th, turn of combat.

I think we are all in agreement on the above issues.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
given the large number of public games around here that you play in, it would be rather difficult to avoid you.

So you acknowledge that I play often, generally with the same strategy, and thus have had the opportunity to hone it specifically, and that my effectiveness may be due more to my practice and experience, compared to your relative lack thereof, rather than the fact that VQs and clams are completely and utterly broken, as demonstrated by the regular failures of my imitators to triumph by this means even when I do not play the VQ?

Originally posted by archaeolept:
of course there are many ways to deal w/ a VQ. however, none of them really do anything, since she pops up again immediately. yah, dust to dust can work, especially en masse. Another SC can work, as long as you've been pursuing a clam/wish strategy as well such that you can stand up to her "magic power" X5 and "power". oh, and also when your pretender is killed, as will happen some good percentage of the time, you gotta pay the price. Not the VQ though.

I wish you people would try to stick to your argument. When someone details a strategy that works to kill them that is easily implemented by 75% of the nations, suddenly the argument is changed "Well what do you do if they have alot of Dominion and build castles, huh? I obviously can't stop that either", then if that is answered it's "Well what do you do if they pour 600 astrals by wishing in to them, eh? I obviously can't stop that either".

You have failed repeatedly to make your arguments that it is overpowered by any estimate. The very first of which is to define overpowered. It is Powerful and it does fill a niche and it is being effectively used by at least 1, if not more people. But since when is that overpowered? The same can be said for any number of different features in the game.

[archaeolept]

No.

The strat is abusive and broken. That you are so wedded to it indicates merely something concerning your psychology.

That people can use VQ's ineffectively is trivially true, and quite irrelevant.

Frankly, the game would be much better if VQs and clams were simply disposed of, like trash.