SCs other than the vq

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
You have correctly assigned the burden of proof, but I think you unfairly dismiss the (albeit subjective) proof that has been presented. That proof is the persistent and disproportional popularity of the Vampire Queen. Although there may be reasons (other than the VQ being overpowered) for that popularity, the fact remains that the popularity reduces diversity in the game, and that's a problem that could be solved by nerfing the VQ.

Sigh. Again. I may have subjectively dismissed it because I personally don't see it, and haven't seen it in any games I've played/playing in the Last month. So if my PoV is worth less than anyone on the other side of the debate then my subjectivity is the culprit.

Popularity does reduce diversity in the game, but popularity is fickle. I'm not quite ready to give up on human nature to believe that because something is popular but not effective it will remain popular. If it is popular and effective then it needs to be looked into (which I thought you read the other thread where I said it was, but you might have forgotten) to determine if it is popular because it is effective and ways to reimplement the diversity. The easiest but not neccesarily best solution being destroying the popularity of the one, instead of making the others more attractive.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
The lack of item slots is not that big a drawback on immortal combat pretenders, if you put a heap of items on an immortal you are 'compromising' its expendability, especially the flying ones which can quickly get back to the front if slain.

Depends. A VQ benefits greatly from Black Steel Plate, as well as other items which are pretty cheap to replace. It almost doesn't matter if you lose your 3rd battle in such a case, as long as you won your first two. And the VQ can be equipped well enough to have a shot against almost anything.

Whereas a Phoenix can _never_ be equipped well enough to deal with certain SCs. Especially if the Phoenix only invested in Fire, its chances against something like an ice devil and slim and none. Almost any other flying SC can kill it in the first turn of combat. Even garden variety knights can.

Phoenix winds up capable of roast and toasting many (but not all) armies. But it's barbecue chicken against many if not most SCs with mediocre equipment. (IE - fire & lightning immunity - easy to get.)

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Whereas a Phoenix can _never_ be equipped well enough to deal with certain SCs. Especially if the Phoenix only invested in Fire, its chances against something like an ice devil and slim and none. Almost any other flying SC can kill it in the first turn of combat. Even garden variety knights can.

That's because a Phoenix is not an SC and is not designed to be used that way: It's very effective in the roles of kamikaze attacks on provinces with either fire or air magic, and is an excellent support caster....but neither its price tag, slottage, nor physical attributes promote its use as an SC.

[ May 05, 2004, 05:20: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[rabelais]

This is my Last post on the VQ thread, I am simply too frustrated with it.

No one has responded to my Posts in other threads, I though the objections to the SC VQ were well documented by now... if I missed the rebuttal, please direct me to it.

As I have said in other Posts, naked immortal SC's that can destroy entire armies (particularly before turn 30 or 20 or 10!!!)are obviously broken.

The castling/temple-ing strat just makes it a more efficient munchkinism, the fundamental problem is that getting a new flying army every turn for free, with no risk of losing it, in whole or in part (the latter being the fate of most normal armies...) while getting it's full tactical benefit.

The resources which must be devoted to stopping an immortal SC far outweigh the costs on a per use basis for producing one, (especially for ermor, whose recruitment does not suffer from scale poverty)... and are highly fraught with the risk of failure, attrition, and are much less flexible weapons than the flying immortal SC.

If there is a counter for it, other than attacking with overwhelming superiority in three places at once, and losing two of those *nonimmortal* armies while taking down one of the castles... you see my point.

The strat is so effective under the current rule set, it is broken.

Your saying someone, an expert, "almost" beat it, having encountered it several times before, isn't much of a defense.

If I know what my opponent is going to do and I *still* can't stop it in a cost effective way, knowing it's coming ... it is BROKEN.

This is a strategy game, ...optimization is supposed to be difficult and non commutative.

In this case it is neither.

Rabe the Retiring


references for those wanting more detail...


http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...583;p=2#000036

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...583;p=1#000050

[Zapmeister]

This is my Last post on the VQ thread, I am simply too frustrated with it.

Ditto, and for the same reason.

[archaeolept]

what rabe said

[archaeolept]

dp

[ May 05, 2004, 08:34: Message edited by: archaeolept ]