SCs other than the vq

[Gandalf Parker]

well if people are dropping the idea that a killer god must be beaten....

Back to the topic of the post, what happened to the wyrm. Was it nerfed? At one time the wyrm was the "automatic choice" for SC and now I hardly see it mentioned.

[archaeolept]

Originally posted by PhilD:

quote:

---

Originally posted by archaeolept:

What counter strat have you layed out for dealing w/ the Norfleet combo? that's all I care about, since that's pretty well all I've been playing against for the past few weeks.

If you don't like Norfleet's playing strategy, why do you keep playing in games he's in?

I'm in several MP games at the moment (slow kind, mostly 1 turn per day), and I've noticed exactly ONE Vampire Queen in there, played by C'tis; AFAIK, she's lost her castle, and since she's now attacking low-defense provinces of mine in my own dominion, my guess is she isn't in the best of shapes. There are plenty of people out there who are not playing Vampire Queens, believe me - surely some of them are of at least moderate skill.

---

my god phil, how the heck is "so don't play w/ someone who uses that strat" at all a legitimate response to the question as to whether the strat shows something as broken in the game? your answer is that the game isn't broken because it is possible to bury one's head in the sand. Bravo.

have you played against it? do you know how it works?

Pperhaps it isn't broken - but then, pls, we would like a general strategy to deal w/ the VQ/uber-SC + infinite castling + clam/wishes combo.

and, that VQ's can suck is so clearly obvious, and such a low grade strawman, that I'm continually flabbergasted that people feel the need to bring this up. Yes, VQ's can be weak. The argument is not that all VQ's all the time are unbalanced, but that they can be, especially in combination w/ an all-out defensive castling strat.

[Vynd]

I am also among the people who have not been conmvinced by the arguments by Zen and others that the VQ is more or less OK. As others have commented, these arguments that "it's not impossible to defeat a VQ" are kind of off base. I mean sure, if it was impossible to beat them, that would be unbalanced. But something can be unbalanced but still be defeatable.

To me, the way to determine if the VQ is unbalanced is to look at her peers. If there are lots of other Pretenders that give you similar value for a similar price, then it seems to me that the VQ is balanced. If the other Pretenders that are priced similarly to the VQ are not as good as her, then she is unbalanced.

For now, my opinion is that she is unbalanced, because she seems to offer much more bang for the buck than the other Pretenders. I'm willing to accept the idea that I am missing something here. But so far I've barely even heard this issue addressed. The closest anyone has come are those who have argued that if you remove the VQ, the Ghost King is almost as good. Maybe so. But that's still only "almost." And that's only one other Pretender. Are there any other Pretenders that give you as much value (not necessarily as a SC) as the VQ does?

[PvK]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
... That proof is the persistent and disproportional popularity of the Vampire Queen. Although there may be reasons (other than the VQ being overpowered) for that popularity, the fact remains that the popularity reduces diversity in the game, and that's a problem that could be solved by nerfing the VQ.

That's not proof. It's an observation by some people about player use of it in some games. It's more evidence of a rumor or of threads on the forum suggesting it as an easy and powerful strategy. The reason lots of people are trying it may be that they have read about it here. Herd behaviour is frequently not caused by keen intelligence.

Nor will it solve herd behaviour to nerf the current trend. Nerfing whatever is most popular would be doing things for the wrong reason.

Herd behaviour is worth noting, but it's not proof, nor is it a reason in itself to make decisions.

Reasons for change are things like too many free synergistic and rare intrinsic abilities with too few disadvantages for too few points compared to other choices. I think there's probably a good case there.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Vynd:
... And that's only one other Pretender. Are there any other Pretenders that give you as much value (not necessarily as a SC) as the VQ does?

Well, I posted a list of potentially tougher SC pretenders earlier. There are also many potentially tougher SC summons. They can also take a strong dominion, and use priests, temples, and other means to limit the dominion of the VQ so the VQ does not get its immortality.

Some of us would say that rainbow pretenders have more potential than SC pretenders anyway. SC's can be cultivated, summoned, equipped into being, in greater numbers than one, and the more magic your pretender has, the more you can do that, assuming you can find other ways to conquer provinces at a reasonable rate.

Ermor building temples and castles everywhere, when their dominion undermines their gold income, sounds like the equivalent in skill and resources to being able to do many other things. Summoning more VQ's with Wish and GoR also sounds like something that would have many alternative uses for all those resources. So VQ's are tougher than Doom Horrors?

Unliving summons don't stop VQ's.

Note that by mentioning all this, I'm not saying that I think VQ's aren't underpriced ... I tend to think that the combo of their abilities may be. Though the Liches and Bog Mummy look capable of similar effects, no?

PvK

[Vynd]

Edit: Some no longer necessary comments about a retracted post have been deleted.


I think that all of the players, new or old, have a right to air their opinions. And this forum is the right place to do it. I do hope that people remain civil, since as you correctly point out, the devs will not pay much attention otherwise.

[ May 05, 2004, 22:28: Message edited by: Vynd ]

[Kel]

Just as herd behavior (not to be confused with herb behavior) doesn't make something right, lots of people doing something doesn't make it herd behavior

- Kel