SCs other than the vq

[Vynd]

I am also among the people who have not been conmvinced by the arguments by Zen and others that the VQ is more or less OK. As others have commented, these arguments that "it's not impossible to defeat a VQ" are kind of off base. I mean sure, if it was impossible to beat them, that would be unbalanced. But something can be unbalanced but still be defeatable.

To me, the way to determine if the VQ is unbalanced is to look at her peers. If there are lots of other Pretenders that give you similar value for a similar price, then it seems to me that the VQ is balanced. If the other Pretenders that are priced similarly to the VQ are not as good as her, then she is unbalanced.

For now, my opinion is that she is unbalanced, because she seems to offer much more bang for the buck than the other Pretenders. I'm willing to accept the idea that I am missing something here. But so far I've barely even heard this issue addressed. The closest anyone has come are those who have argued that if you remove the VQ, the Ghost King is almost as good. Maybe so. But that's still only "almost." And that's only one other Pretender. Are there any other Pretenders that give you as much value (not necessarily as a SC) as the VQ does?

[PvK]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
... That proof is the persistent and disproportional popularity of the Vampire Queen. Although there may be reasons (other than the VQ being overpowered) for that popularity, the fact remains that the popularity reduces diversity in the game, and that's a problem that could be solved by nerfing the VQ.

That's not proof. It's an observation by some people about player use of it in some games. It's more evidence of a rumor or of threads on the forum suggesting it as an easy and powerful strategy. The reason lots of people are trying it may be that they have read about it here. Herd behaviour is frequently not caused by keen intelligence.

Nor will it solve herd behaviour to nerf the current trend. Nerfing whatever is most popular would be doing things for the wrong reason.

Herd behaviour is worth noting, but it's not proof, nor is it a reason in itself to make decisions.

Reasons for change are things like too many free synergistic and rare intrinsic abilities with too few disadvantages for too few points compared to other choices. I think there's probably a good case there.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Vynd:
... And that's only one other Pretender. Are there any other Pretenders that give you as much value (not necessarily as a SC) as the VQ does?

Well, I posted a list of potentially tougher SC pretenders earlier. There are also many potentially tougher SC summons. They can also take a strong dominion, and use priests, temples, and other means to limit the dominion of the VQ so the VQ does not get its immortality.

Some of us would say that rainbow pretenders have more potential than SC pretenders anyway. SC's can be cultivated, summoned, equipped into being, in greater numbers than one, and the more magic your pretender has, the more you can do that, assuming you can find other ways to conquer provinces at a reasonable rate.

Ermor building temples and castles everywhere, when their dominion undermines their gold income, sounds like the equivalent in skill and resources to being able to do many other things. Summoning more VQ's with Wish and GoR also sounds like something that would have many alternative uses for all those resources. So VQ's are tougher than Doom Horrors?

Unliving summons don't stop VQ's.

Note that by mentioning all this, I'm not saying that I think VQ's aren't underpriced ... I tend to think that the combo of their abilities may be. Though the Liches and Bog Mummy look capable of similar effects, no?

PvK

[Vynd]

Edit: Some no longer necessary comments about a retracted post have been deleted.


I think that all of the players, new or old, have a right to air their opinions. And this forum is the right place to do it. I do hope that people remain civil, since as you correctly point out, the devs will not pay much attention otherwise.

[ May 05, 2004, 22:28: Message edited by: Vynd ]

[Kel]

Just as herd behavior (not to be confused with herb behavior) doesn't make something right, lots of people doing something doesn't make it herd behavior

- Kel

[PvK]

I'm sure Gandalf isn't trying to upset anyone. He's just echoing a message that has needed to be said many times in the past, when (typically, new-to-the-game) players have ranted their opinions in inappropriate tones, and been duly ignored. Sometimes they may even have had a good point, but the result was just an annoyance for everyone. The lesson learned is that staying polite and making clear and logical arguments is generally very effective, particularly with Illwinter.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Kel:
Just as herd behavior (not to be confused with herb behavior) doesn't make something right, lots of people doing something doesn't make it herd behavior

- Kel

Sure. I was mainly just responding to the idea that popularity equals proof of imbalance.

PvK